A fish out of water

I

Iprofessshirk

New Member
Hello all, I'm looking for a place to have respectful theological discussions. I've only briefly looked though your forums, and I don't see a whole lot of that type of discussion here. Could anyone point me in the right direction?

My username is not meant to be offensive, its simply stating fact, I'm a believer in Jesus the Messiah, the son of God as taught in the Bible. I'm a firm believer in the Christian God, but I'm also very interested in your religion.

If any of you could help guide me to the correct forum, it would be most appreciated :)
 
PeacefulHumanity

PeacefulHumanity

:)Smile! It's Sunnah
Hello,

Thank you for joining the forum. Do you have any specific questions you'd like to ask? We'll do our best to help you out. Have a nice day.
 
I

Iprofessshirk

New Member
For instance.

I understand that Islam teaches that the Bible is authoritative, and is the inspired word of God. If this is true, why is it contradicted in the Koran? Specifically, why does the Koran teach that Jesus was not crucified?
 
uniqueskates

uniqueskates

Rabbe Zidni Illma
Greetings brother,

I request you to make a thread and post it in the TurnToIslam Lounge. Am sure your queries would be answered. I am not much aware of Christainity. Else I would have helped.

Thank you.
Peace.
 
IbnAdam77

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
Iprofessshirk said:
For instance.

I understand that Islam teaches that the Bible is authoritative, and is the inspired word of God. If this is true, why is it contradicted in the Koran? Specifically, why does the Koran teach that Jesus was not crucified?
Click to expand...

Peace be upon you.

Dear brother in Humanity,

We Muslims believe that Injeel (Original Gospel) is the word of God, not the Bible present today. As for today's Bible, we have ways with regard to accept it or reject it.

1. The things in Bible which matches with Quran - We accept them.
2. The things in Bible which are against the Quran - We reject them.
3. The things in Bible which the Quran say nothing about - We stay neutral on them.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you believe in each and every word of the Bible to be the word of God? :)
 
IbnAdam77

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
For the answer of your second question, here is a Debate between Dr. Zakir Naik (Muslim Scholar) and Pastor Ruknuddin Pio (Christian Scholar).

[video=youtube;l_886aC1enY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_886aC1enY[/video]

Hope that helps with the Will of God. :)
 
slaveofAllah88

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
Iprofessshirk said:
For instance.

I understand that Islam teaches that the Bible is authoritative, and is the inspired word of God. If this is true, why is it contradicted in the Koran? Specifically, why does the Koran teach that Jesus was not crucified?
Click to expand...

Peace

the reason for that is, cause the bible we believe in is what was revealed to Prophet Eesa (Jesus) Peace be upon him, the bible that is found today is accounts of matthew, John, Paul, etc, now though there might be some accuracy there are many things that were added on, i think if you study the middle ages/dark ages, you will know how many things were kinda put in there, also those discrepancies shows when comparing different versions,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations

having said that, bible was never meant to be preserved cause Jesus (peace be upon him) said as i quote from the bible

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. its found in john 16:12

(u can check this quote in red letter bible which christians scholars say are spoken words of Jesus (PBUH)

Which is true cause Jesus (PBUH) knew there was a final Prophet coming to complete everything. And also there is a small prophecy found in 1 John, Chapter 4

Chapter 4

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


If you look at islam, Quran, the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you will realize this prophecy fits Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) like a glove fits a hand, He (PBUH) was the one who told us and made it a article of faith for us that Prophet Jesus (PBUH) came in Flesh aka he was human, not a God but a powerful Messenger of God

Having taking all that in account, as the brother stated before me,

IbnAdam77 said:
Peace be upon you.

We Muslims believe that Injeel (Original Gospel) is the word of God, not the Bible present today. As for today's Bible, we have ways with regard to accept it or reject it.

1. The things in Bible which matches with Quran - We accept them.
2. The things in Bible which are against the Quran - We reject them.
3. The things in Bible which the Quran say nothing about - We stay neutral on them.
Click to expand...


Just posting some quotes from Bible that can be used to tell about the forecoming of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

References: “What Did Jesus Really Say”
And the Lord said unto me, “They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them a Prophet from among their bretheren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mout;l and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My Name, I will require it of him” (Deuteronomy 18:17-19)
And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read” (Isaiah 29:12)
Nevertheless I will tell you the truth. It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you (John 16:7)
The disciples answered, “O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world?” Jesus answered with joy of heart, “He is Muhammad, Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For his is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.” (Barnabas 163)
Jesus answered, “Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me „God,‟ and „Son of God,‟ God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas; making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God‟s Law.” Having thus spoken, Jesus said, “You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.” (Barnabas 220)
Click to expand...


Hope it was detailed and answered your question, and u understand the points mentioned above, you will understand why we take the word of Quran as the final answer so when Quran says Jesus (PBUH) was not crucified we say samaena wa atana (we hear and we affirm)
 
I

Iprofessshirk

New Member
IbnAdam77 said:
Peace be upon you.

Dear brother in Humanity,

We Muslims believe that Injeel (Original Gospel) is the word of God, not the Bible present today. As for today's Bible, we have ways with regard to accept it or reject it.

1. The things in Bible which matches with Quran - We accept them.
2. The things in Bible which are against the Quran - We reject them.
3. The things in Bible which the Quran say nothing about - We stay neutral on them.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you believe in each and every word of the Bible to be the word of God? :)
Click to expand...

I believe the Bible teaches that it is the inspired word of God not a direct dictation (as with the Koran), and I agree with you that modern translations may contain flaws...only the original texts were "inspired".
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
Having said that, I think we have an abundance of tools at our disposal these days to pick apart the texts and decifer the teachings of the original texts to a very high degree of accuracy.

In the same way, Islam claims the Koran is without fault in its original translation, but looking back into the history of the test itself, there is a lot of dispute over its accuracy & completeness.

slaveofAllah88 said:
Peace

the reason for that is, cause the bible we believe in is what was revealed to Prophet Eesa (Jesus) Peace be upon him, the bible that is found today is accounts of matthew, John, Paul, etc, now though there might be some accuracy there are many things that were added on, i think if you study the middle ages/dark ages, you will know how many things were kinda put in there, also those discrepancies shows when comparing different versions,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations

having said that, bible was never meant to be preserved cause Jesus (peace be upon him) said as i quote from the bible

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. its found in john 16:12

(u can check this quote in red letter bible which christians scholars say are spoken words of Jesus (PBUH)

Which is true cause Jesus (PBUH) knew there was a final Prophet coming to complete everything. And also there is a small prophecy found in 1 John, Chapter 4

Chapter 4

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


If you look at islam, Quran, the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you will realize this prophecy fits Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) like a glove fits a hand, He (PBUH) was the one who told us and made it a article of faith for us that Prophet Jesus (PBUH) came in Flesh aka he was human, not a God but a powerful Messenger of God

Having taking all that in account, as the brother stated before me,

Just posting some quotes from Bible that can be used to tell about the forecoming of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

Hope it was detailed and answered your question, and u understand the points mentioned above, you will understand why we take the word of Quran as the final answer so when Quran says Jesus (PBUH) was not crucified we say samaena wa atana (we hear and we affirm)
Click to expand...

I find it very interesting that you would choose 1 John 4:1-3 as references. If you continue to read the chapter, you'll reach verses 9 & 10:
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

This seems to be a pretty strong arguement against Islam. John is saying, "watch out and don't be decieved, if anyone denies Jesus is the Son of God, he is that anti-Christ". Having read this, do you question Muhammad's teachings? Why or why not?

Concerning Deuteronomy 18:17-19:
This could easily be attributed to having been fulfilled in any or all of the Old Testament prophets.
Reading a bit further also provides some interesting insight v19-22: it could be reasonably argued that Muhammad does not pass the test. For instance, why didn't the Dajjal appear in the 14th century as Muhammad prophecied? Or why are Muhammad's moral teachings different from Jesus'?

Concerning Isaiah 29:12:
If you add in verse 11 and read the whole passage in context; it is not a direct prophecy, just simple truth.
Please keep Biblical references in context, and I will give the Koran the same respect.

Concerning John 16:7:
Again, read the whole passage...Jesus talks about returning to His father, but you conveniently skip over those parts. Verse 7 is referring to the "Holy Spirit", part of the trinity which Islam rejects. But if Jesus is teaching it, how can you reject it? How can you say that Muhammad was a "comforter" or "advocate" when his teachings are so different from Jesus'?

Concerning the gospel according to Barnabas:
If you're really quoting this as a legitimate source, are you aware of it's inconsistancy with the Koran?
http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/gospel-predicting-islams-coming-contradicts-quran-414781
 
slaveofAllah88

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
Iprofessshirk said:
I believe the Bible teaches that it is the inspired word of God not a direct dictation (as with the Koran), and I agree with you that modern translations may contain flaws...only the original texts were "inspired".
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
Having said that, I think we have an abundance of tools at our disposal these days to pick apart the texts and decifer the teachings of the original texts to a very high degree of accuracy.

In the same way, Islam claims the Koran is without fault in its original translation, but looking back into the history of the test itself, there is a lot of dispute over its accuracy & completeness.



I find it very interesting that you would choose 1 John 4:1-3 as references. If you continue to read the chapter, you'll reach verses 9 & 10:
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

This seems to be a pretty strong arguement against Islam. John is saying, "watch out and don't be decieved, if anyone denies Jesus is the Son of God, he is that anti-Christ". Having read this, do you question Muhammad's teachings? Why or why not?

Concerning Deuteronomy 18:17-19:
This could easily be attributed to having been fulfilled in any or all of the Old Testament prophets.
Reading a bit further also provides some interesting insight v19-22: it could be reasonably argued that Muhammad does not pass the test. For instance, why didn't the Dajjal appear in the 14th century as Muhammad prophecied? Or why are Muhammad's moral teachings different from Jesus'?

Concerning Isaiah 29:12:
If you add in verse 11 and read the whole passage in context; it is not a direct prophecy, just simple truth.
Please keep Biblical references in context, and I will give the Koran the same respect.

Concerning John 16:7:
Again, read the whole passage...Jesus talks about returning to His father, but you conveniently skip over those parts. Verse 7 is referring to the "Holy Spirit", part of the trinity which Islam rejects. But if Jesus is teaching it, how can you reject it? How can you say that Muhammad was a "comforter" or "advocate" when his teachings are so different from Jesus'?

Concerning the gospel according to Barnabas:
If you're really quoting this as a legitimate source, are you aware of it's inconsistancy with the Koran?
http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/gospel-predicting-islams-coming-contradicts-quran-414781
Click to expand...


thats weird for me actually, cause if you read it from top to bottom the top seems to contract the bottom then?

2 This is how you can know God’s Spirit: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ came to earth as a human is from God

while the bottom as u posted, anywayz in islam we believe Jesus (PBUH) is the christ aka the messiah
(ancient Greek: Χριστός, Christós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah, )

having said that like i quoted above, we use quran as a guide because its suppose to separate the truth from falsehood, there are no discrepancies, no versions, still have original Praise be to God.

And you will find in Quran many verses talking to christians directly reminding them of the true message of Jesus (PBUH) and answering to them

and about dajjal in 14th century im not aware of that reference maybe some more knowledgeable brother can answer if you can provide the exact reference where you got that from, also it is the 14th century of hijri calendar (islamic calendar) wat we are living in now. Most of the what we were told by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were signs, saying if such and such happens knows that the time is close.

Regarding teachings of Jesus (PBUH) thats were we differ alot, we say he (PBUH) said he was a no more than a messiah, and came to the sheep of Isreal , and he himself cant do anything without God permission, and he submitted his will to God's will which translates to muslim, submitting ur will according to what God wants.

Im not really an expert on bible, been some years since i studied it this is a good book “What Did Jesus Really Say” and if you search Ahmad Deedat on youtube, you will come across some amazing debates on such topics

:) hope it answers the questions
 
alf2

alf2

Islam is a way of life
Hello.........

When you say, "I'm looking for a place to have respectful theological discussions. I've only briefly looked though your forums, and I don't see a whole lot of that type of discussion here." Do you mean:

1) We are not respectful
OR
2) We do not have theological discussions.

We are both. We have theological discussions in the serious part of the forum, and light hearted discussions in other parts.

We have had people from other religions on this forum who were liked by us as well as liked the enviornment. Please dont make waves, keep an open mind, and maybe you can learn something about Islam God willing...

Also I have a question, Just wondering, If I (being a Muslim and ex-Christian) were to join a Christian website proselytizing Islam, how do you suppose I would be received? I find it humorous how non-Muslims come here and to that to us...But If I did the same on a Christian forum I'd probably be threatened and banned in no time :)

And lastly, I find your username pretty much as stupid as those people who have bumper stickers that say, "Proud Infidel"
Now I'm gonna give you a big ol' eye roll *rolls eyes*
 
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