Do you think that Muslims can peacefully live in the west or should they just leave?

AdamMuslim · Sep 20, 2010

Assalamou Alikom Warahmatou Allah,
Dear brothers and sisters,

Do you think that Muslims can peacefully live in the west or should they just leave?

I've been brainstorming about this question for years now and the longer I think about it the clearer the picture becomes in my mind. With the ever growing islamophobia in the west I truly believe that every Muslim should and must do whatever he or she can to secure a living in an Islamic country.

I truly couldn't see how can we live in a societies that hate our religion, do not respect our values, look at us with suspicious eyes and I can not see how can we rise our children to be good Muslims in such societies.

I was reading this article today and I think it should trigger an alarm for Muslim communities across Europe since most European societies are shifting, in every election, to the far-right (Austria, Switzerland, Danmark, Sweden, etc,etc).

So, those who are directly concerned, what do you think?

Wassalam

weakslave · Sep 20, 2010

Walykom Assalaam Warahmatu Allaah,

Living in a non-Muslim country is definitely a questionable act at best if there isn't a valid reason for it. Some say living in so-called Muslim countries is worse than living in the west, and there are advantages to living in both.

Just the fact that we don't hear the adthan every day, schooling for children is limited, good muslim friends for youth are hard to come by, having to constantly check items if they are halal or not (although this is becoming a problem in Muslim countries as well).

I think if we are living in the west without a valid reason we will have a lot of explaining to do on the day of judgement. Easier life isn't a valid reason. If Muslims aren't willing to reform their countries and leave when they can't take it anymore.. this is a serious problem.

Tabassum07 · Sep 20, 2010

This is preposterous. When I saw the thread title, I thought someone new and foreign to Islam had made this thread.

All right, I don't want to take an attacking stance, so I'll calm down and try to make others see this logically: like brother ayman said so truly, if the early muslims had thought that they should just live their own muslim lives in a secluded area, they would never have left Arabia. The rest of the world would have stayed ignorant and paganism would be the order of the world. No one would ever have heard of Islam, and muslims would have been reduced to whatever some small tribes living in the middle of the jungle are like - nobody knows of them, and nobody wants to know of them. But thankfully, in the beginning, our Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his followers left their peaceful homes and travelled to spread the word. They took difficulty upon difficulty just to make sure that Allah's Word was spread around their nearby areas - they travelled across the desert and to all the neighbouring countries, talked to the local people, helped them see the error of their ways and helped them embrace Islam. It is because of this effort of going out of your way into difficulty that has made Islam spread like how it has today.

Tell me brother, what about the muslims who aren't born in Islamic countries to begin with? I was born in the West, but I've also grown up in India. Both are non-muslim countries. I have no tie whatsoever to an Islamic country - its not that I wouldn't love to go there, but it's difficult to begin with, if you understand what I mean. What about my countless friends and relatives who live in these unIslamic countries? Suppose if every single muslim leaves the rest of the world and settles in Arabia. Then what? Should we leave the rest of the world ignorant? This way, by mixing with them and assimilating with them we can show them what Islam is.

When my parents lived in the West 25-30 years ago, our city had no muslim population whatsoever. My father tells me how he and *five* other people would perform Eid prayer in someone's house. Fastforward to 25 years later, where the muslim community has grown so strong that this Eid, prayer was held in the University Sports Center, and even that appeared small for the thousands and thousands of muslims. Would this be possible if muslims refused to leave and go live in the West? No.

I understand it's hard, and there's fitnah. I myself go through countless troubles to see what to eat and how to live my daily life Islamically. We know that in the end, Islam will win over the world.How will that happen if not by showing the world what we are and to have them accept us, right?

sister herb · Sep 20, 2010

:salam2:

I voted yes, muslims can live peacefully in the west too. Like some others wrote, if early muslims didn´t never leave they own country, then it might be possible that for example I never know about Islam and I would still be Christian as I was before I returned to Islam.

(Sounds terrible idea :SMILY23:

)

Also I think even the idea that every muslims would move "back" to islamic countries will make them too much over-populated (what some countries are already).

ShahnazZ · Sep 20, 2010

I understand the need for migration in certain circumstances. For example, I believe it is crucial to migrate if you are allowing your environment to prevent you from carrying out your Islamic obligations. Notice I said YOU are allowing yourself to be prevented. I didn't say the environment was. That's because a true Muslim will practice his or her religion perfectly no matter where they are. However, that doesn't mean it's easy and if a person feels that it would be easier for them to practice in a Muslim country then they should migrate. However, there are many practicing Muslims living in non-Muslim countries who don't allow anything to hinder them from practicing Islam the way they are supposed to. Additionally, when they do this they're providing dawah to non-Muslims and alhamdulillah this is how Islam is becoming the fastest-growing religion in the world.

Basic point? It's fine to migrate to non-Muslim countries, but I believe that as long as you remain steadfast in your iman, you're a benefit to whatever non-Muslim country you're leaving in as they can use more people like that.

AdamMuslim · Sep 20, 2010

Assalamou Alikom Warahamatou Allah,

Sorry my dear brothers and sisters but really no offense intended!
However, I am really amazed that some members were shocked by my question! I thought (and I still think so!) that it is very legitimate and relevant and above all I am sincere since this question has been bothering me for a while now.

I've visited so many western societies and wherever I go I've always noticed that most Muslims are living in the edge of those societies: no real integration, random mosques, ghettoïsation, etc. I think except for few cases, no one can deny this fact. In addition, the current trend of anti-Muslim laws (Burka ban in France and Belgium and soon others will follow, the minaret ban in Switzerland, etc, etc) send us a clear message that they are not crazy about us to say the least.

Also, when I see some Muslim's children and how they are gradually loosing their identities, even though their parents are good Muslims, makes me think about how hard is to rise kids, when you live in the west, without being exposed to fitnah and this is because kids are actually more educated by their school teachers and tutors more then their own parents!

Last year (when I was still living in France), in my local mosque, a brother's daughter escaped from her father's house the very day she turned 18 and went to the authorities and told them that her father imposed hijab on her. I know this is a marginal event but it should ring a bell for those who have children and who are trying to give them some Islamic education.

The argument that we should stay to do dawah is not fully correct because I think that very few among us are 100% committed to that purpose and the overwhelming majority (this includes myself!) are mostly occupied with their daily businesses. Hence, even from a scholastic point of view we are not allowed to stay unless we do not have any other alternative (actually there are some fatwas in this direction).

I am saying this even though, Alhamdouli'Allah, I have an enviable situation here that most people only dream of and in my work I’m really surrounded by the elite from all over the world (Phds, Engeneers, etc) and hence, theoretically I should be the last one to complain! Nonetheless, from time to time, I can not help but ask myself the question: am I really on the right place??!!

Personally, I made up my mind and InchaAllah I'll move as soon as I'll find a convenient place and job!

Wassalam

Abdul25 · Sep 20, 2010

AdamMuslim said:
Assalamou Alikom Warahamatou Allah,

Sorry my dear brothers and sisters but really no offense intended!
However, I am really amazed that some members were shocked by my question! I thought (and I still think so!) that it is very legitimate and relevant and above all I am sincere since this question has been bothering me for a while now.

I've visited so many western societies and wherever I go I've always noticed that most Muslims are living in the edge of those societies: no real integration, random mosques, ghettoïsation, etc. I think except for few cases, no one can deny this fact. In addition, the current trend of anti-Muslim laws (Burka ban in France and Belgium and soon others will follow, the minaret ban in Switzerland, etc, etc) send us a clear message that they are not crazy about us to say the least.

Also, when I see some Muslim's children and how they are gradually loosing their identities, even though their parents are good Muslims, makes me think about how hard is, when you live in the west, to rise kids without being exposed to fitnah and this is because kids are actually more educated by their school teachers and tutors more then their own parents!

Last year (back when I was still living in France), in my local mosque, a brother's daughter escaped from her father's house the very day she turned 18 and went to the authorities and told them that her father imposed hijab on her. I know this is a marginal event but it should ring a bell for those who have children and who are trying to give them some Islamic education.

The argument that we should stay to do dawah is not fully correct because I think that very few among us are 100% committed to that purpose and the overwhelming majority (this includes myself!) are mostly occupied with their daily businesses. Hence, even from a scholastic point of view we are not allowed to stay unless we do not have any other alternative (actually there are some fatwas in this direction).

I am saying this even though, Alhamdouli'Allah, I have an enviable situation here that most people only dream of and in my work I’m really surrounded by the elite from all over the world (Phds, Engeneers, etc) and hence, theoretically I should be the last one to complain! Nonetheless, from time to time, I can not help but ask myself the question: am I really on the right place??!!

Personally, I made up my mind and InchaAllah I'll move as soon as I'll find a convenient place and job!

Wassalam

:salam2:

Brother your post is full of wisdom MashAllah. your are 100% right. i fully agree with you on the ghettos and random mosques and no integration at all and the majority of young youth that is so called Muslim by name.there is too much racism here in Europe, these people don't like us, i can see from their faces and then we feel uncomfortable. i personally know 3 cases when people chose Muslim countries to this western society. i myself want to go to KSA,Pakistan or Turkey after my degree inshAllah.

dilek · Sep 20, 2010

Korai_28 said:
:salam2:

i myself want to go to KSA,Pakistan or Turkey after my degree inshAllah.

I advice KSA :hijabi:

we know Pakistan has many problems, you know better it is your country, and Turkey has special matters :girl3:

i know better it is my country :redface:

I dont know many issues in KSA, but it cant be worse than these both

BrotherInIslam7 · Sep 20, 2010

:salam2:

I feel that this thread has two unrelated aspects of it, which are being presented together :-

1) Not being able to practice Islam properly as environment around is hostile to practicing Islam (countries which have banned Niqab, don't allow muslim to fast or pray etc) or living in that country endangers the safety of muslim (any country where the ruling govt persecutes muslims such as Sunnis in Iran etc)

2) Living in a non muslim country leading to exposure to non Islamic environment that is detrimental to your faith. Leading you to give up obligatory practices of Islam (observing Hijab, eating Halaal, praying 5 times a day) and not abstaining from the unlawful (intermingling with opposite sex freely, drinking, fornicating, watching & listening haraam).

For the people mentioned in the first category, it is obvious that they need to get their Islamic rights back as soon as possible. In the judicial body fails to uphold their basic rights and practice Islam properly, they should try to migrate to an Islamic country where they could practice Islam peacefully.
And we ask Allah azz zawajal to help our brothers and sisters who are in this condition. It is one of the most difficult things one can be faced with, when one is being persecuted and his/her basic human rights are taken away.

The second category is up to individuals. Each one has to assess their own self, their own family (in case of children) and see if they can have a proper Islamic upbringing in that city. It is unfortunate that some people overlook this important criteria when they choose to reside in a city in favor of leading a comfortable life or earning more money. As outsiders, we can only advise them and make dua for them. The decision however is in their hands.

Also, one can't make a general statement for 'people living in the west'. There are thriving muslim communities in some large cities in the west (such as Houston, London etc) where one can very well be in company of good muslims and also of scholars and people of knowledge. At the same time, there are certain elements in each society that can lead a person going away from his deen, we have to keep our guards up against them and keep reminding our fellow muslims who face the same challenges.

MohammedMaksudul · Sep 20, 2010

:salam2: wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Pardon me if you feel I am offending someone but what I know is that it is actually compulsory for a Muslim to immigrate from a Land, where he/she is oppressed and there is an ayat in the Quran regarding that as well. (I seek refuge in Allah from shaytan, the cursed on) 4:97 "Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination." But if somebody is intentionally living in a land of opression to do work of dawa' that is surely a different case. But if somebody is living their due to reasons involving birth place, family, etc is not excusable. Remember you will be with those whom you love on the Day of Judgement (Authentic hadith, sorry for not being able to quote the reference). Even if the whole ummah tried to migrate to a single peace of Land then still it would be able to contain them if Allah wills. The arab countries are not Islamic nations, its only that they have more muslims living their. They have kings, which a monarchy system that is passed down in a single family generations after generations. Whereas the true system of governance is the Khilafa. If there is a khilafa anywhere in the world and we come to know of it, then it is fard on every Muslim to migrate. Even if the starting piece of land for the Khilafa is too small to hold the billion population of Muslims. Hope I have not offended anyone, but you can look more into the matter and ask proper scholars. May Allah guide us.

Tabassum07 · Sep 21, 2010

Wow, I reconsider my earlier post. It is true that if one is put to hardship, one should emigrate. And I would love for a Khilafat to come up again - imagine all of our problems solved and we can be left to live in peace..

sahen · Sep 21, 2010

Let me make it clear and simple, If you are here for an easier life then it is best to go back to where you came from, If you are here to do jihad inviting people to Islam then this is your place.

saifkhan · Sep 21, 2010

salam alaikum

come on brother!
race is from Allah subhanahu wa ta'la how can one change this!
he may reside other place, that doesnt mean that he gonna leave peacefully!

Allah has put different ppl to diiferent works to done, and we should concentrate in the wisdom behind his planning more tha to thinking of moving to other placeand Allah azza wa jal knows the best

wassalam

Seeker-of-truth · Sep 27, 2010

i live in england and it is really a bad country, the facilities are excellent and racial abuse is minimal, the main problem is the taxes, some of it goes directly to the killing of muslims which is unacceptable.. what can we do? are we allowed to stay whilst muslims are dying or not?

iloveislam78 · Sep 27, 2010

Pardon me if you feel I am offending someone but what I know is that it is actually compulsory for a Muslim to immigrate from a Land, where he/she is oppressed and there is an ayat in the Quran regarding that as well. (I seek refuge in Allah from shaytan, the cursed on) 4:97 "Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination." But if somebody is intentionally living in a land of opression to do work of dawa' that is surely a different case. But if somebody is living their due to reasons involving birth place, family, etc is not excusable. Remember you will be with those whom you love on the Day of Judgement (Authentic hadith, sorry for not being able to quote the reference). Even if the whole ummah tried to migrate to a single peace of Land then still it would be able to contain them if Allah wills. The arab countries are not Islamic nations, its only that they have more muslims living their. They have kings, which a monarchy system that is passed down in a single family generations after generations. Whereas the true system of governance is the Khilafa. If there is a khilafa anywhere in the world and we come to know of it, then it is fard on every Muslim to migrate. Even if the starting piece of land for the Khilafa is too small to hold the billion population of Muslims. Hope I have not offended anyone, but you can look more into the matter and ask proper scholars. May Allah guide us.
Last edited by MohammedMaksudul; 09-21-2010 at 09:33 AM.

I was reading this entire thread just waiting for somebody to write this the above truth y'all are only confused because you are lacking in knowledge islam isnt based on your opinions or feelings, do some research and you'll find your answers as above clear cut.
Otherwise you'll be forever chasesing your tails as above !!!!!
Jazakallah for whoever wrote the above!!

kayleigh · Sep 28, 2010

ayman1 said:
If the early Muslims thought that, they would have stayed in Arabia. Thank God they did not. Closed minds close the door of da`wa and deprive millions from guidance. God tells us, "You have been the best community brought out for people: you enjoin what is recognized as good, forbid the objectionable and believe in God." (3:110). It's our charter from God to be among others, so that, at least, they would see, hear and experience what being a Muslim means. We have not been privileged to be Muslims for no reason! We are given this enormous privilege because we are required to convey the message to others, if only by our good example.

I agree.

I like where I live. Yeah, I have white privilege and no one can tell I'm Muslim unless I tell them, so it makes my life much easier than women who wear hijab or people who look arab or south asian, but you're going to encounter prejudice and hatred EVERYWHERE, even in Islamic countries, I'm sure. I'm not oppressed, so I'm not going anywhere.

If everyone packed up and moved to an "Islamic" country, it would probably get worse. Muslims would be sealed off from the rest of the world, and people in the West would have zero access to Muslims or Islam. I doubt Muslim majority countries could even handle the population increase if every Muslim moved there.

In one of my classes, we're learning about this idea of how Muslims living as a minority in a non-Muslim society should act. I forget the name of it, but I'm sure someone on here knows of it. I think it was developed in Africa, or at least was very popular among Muslims there. But basically it says that you should live peacefully among the non-Muslims and live by example. I think thats important. If suddenly tomorrow, everyone woke up and not one single Muslim lived in the US or UK or wherever, why would anyone be curious about Islam, or want to learn about it or convert? Even if they did, where would they go with no masjid or community to go to? Islam isn't meant to be practiced in a specific corner of the world. It is a global religion.

arzafar · Sep 28, 2010

muslims should be conquering the west not hiding, looking to integrate or differentiate for that matter and seeking help from kuffar.

and just to clarify, early muslims attacked the neighboring countries and conquered them. armies upon armies willing to die were sent in all parts of the world. they used to offer three things
1) accept Islam (before his death the prophet had already sent letters to the respective rulers of the neighboring empires)
2) pay jizya to the muslim khalifa
3) prepare to fight
yes that is jihad. the most powerful empires of the time, byzantine and Persian were defeated. the largest armies use to crumble against the muslim army regularly! they didnt go there for a happy life, or establish some kind of peaceful coexistence. they went there to establish islam and shariah (rule of God).

may i know how many in the west have been able to establish shariah in their country. in fact muslims have themselves given up shariah in favor of western system in tehir own countries, perhaps that's why they dont feel any difference between a muslim country and a kaafir country. so drop the 'comparison' with early muslims right there.

Muslims have long since given up jihad and basically islamic shariah as well so now they have this defeatist attitude where by they themselves question the above historical account.

now to the question in red.

the general ruling is that Muslims should not settle in kaafir countries except for dawa or seeking education that is not available elsewhere or he needs some medical treatment not available elsewhere or he is desperate and cannot find any other place. anyone who converts to Islam must migrate to a muslim land.

and plz cut this excuse that we can go hand in hand with the kaafirs, live with them with the intention of converting them. It has been played over and over again and sound ridiculous every time.

dawa can be done by inviting kaafir groups and parties free of cost to Muslim countries and showing them our islamic life style and tell them about islaam, through internet and Islamic channels and what not. that's how the prophet saw used to do it, many parties used to come to madina from far off places. He only settled in madina when the natives had already become inclined towards islaam. there's absolutely no need to settle amongst kaafirs to invite them.

khangul · Oct 7, 2010

:salam2:

HTML:

           Also, when I see some Muslim's children and how they are gradually loosing their identities, even though their parents are good Muslims, makes me think about how hard is to rise kids, when you live in the west, without being exposed to fitnah and this is because kids are actually more educated by their school teachers and tutors more then their own parents!

not only their kids get out of their hands but also i saw many sisters from my community removed their scarves for jeans.and 99% muslims are living in the west not for daawah but for luxorious life.

hayat_yahya · Oct 7, 2010

al-fajr said:
Assalamu'alaykum,

The question of the poll contains two seperate issues, 'can they live peacefully' and 'should they just leave' and the second issue isn't dependent on the first, though the first could, for obvious reasons, influence the second.

Tabassum07 said:
This is preposterous. When I saw the thread title, I thought someone new and foreign to Islam had made this thread.

All right, I don't want to take an attacking stance, so I'll calm down and try to make others see this logically: like brother ayman said so truly, if the early muslims had thought that they should just live their own muslim lives in a secluded area, they would never have left Arabia. The rest of the world would have stayed ignorant and paganism would be the order of the world. No one would ever have heard of Islam, and muslims would have been reduced to whatever some small tribes living in the middle of the jungle are like - nobody knows of them, and nobody wants to know of them. But thankfully, in the beginning, our Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his followers left their peaceful homes and travelled to spread the word. They took difficulty upon difficulty just to make sure that Allah's Word was spread around their nearby areas - they travelled across the desert and to all the neighbouring countries, talked to the local people, helped them see the error of their ways and helped them embrace Islam. It is because of this effort of going out of your way into difficulty that has made Islam spread like how it has today.

Tell me brother, what about the muslims who aren't born in Islamic countries to begin with? I was born in the West, but I've also grown up in India. Both are non-muslim countries. I have no tie whatsoever to an Islamic country - its not that I wouldn't love to go there, but it's difficult to begin with, if you understand what I mean. What about my countless friends and relatives who live in these unIslamic countries? Suppose if every single muslim leaves the rest of the world and settles in Arabia. Then what? Should we leave the rest of the world ignorant? This way, by mixing with them and assimilating with them we can show them what Islam is.

When my parents lived in the West 25-30 years ago, our city had no muslim population whatsoever. My father tells me how he and *five* other people would perform Eid prayer in someone's house. Fastforward to 25 years later, where the muslim community has grown so strong that this Eid, prayer was held in the University Sports Center, and even that appeared small for the thousands and thousands of muslims. Would this be possible if muslims refused to leave and go live in the West? No.

I understand it's hard, and there's fitnah. I myself go through countless troubles to see what to eat and how to live my daily life Islamically. We know that in the end, Islam will win over the world.How will that happen if not by showing the world what we are and to have them accept us, right?

sister harb said:
:salam2:

I voted yes, muslims can live peacefully in the west too. Like some others wrote, if early muslims didn´t never leave they own country, then it might be possible that for example I never know about Islam and I would still be Christian as I was before I returned to Islam.

(Sounds terrible idea )

Also I think even the idea that every muslims would move "back" to islamic countries will make them too much over-populated (what some countries are already).

:salam2:

i agree totally with the above posts maybe cuse am born in the west as them and i believe that yes, you can live peacefully in the west if u respect the people, their religion and customs, their laws which doesn't mean doing anything against islam; you can practice islam anywhere alhamdulillah and u can change the lives of others; i can't say tht life is pinky but we all are humans and can live together and help each other whtever our religion is; in each religion u find good and bad ppl.

alhamdulillah am a muslim but free frm customs, i think i should be grateful for it, grateful for every blessing tht Allah gives me, grateful for even being born in the west; i rather am born here instead of middle east and growing up with sum traditions which poison our minds with prejudices related to age, skin color, nationality and much more.

AdamMuslim · Oct 7, 2010

Assalamou Alykom Wrahmatou Allah,

Maybe the situation in the US and the GB are different and Muslims enjoy more freedom. But in continental Europe things are different. To have a little glimps of what is going on out there you can listen to this lecture (I think it is a Shiit conference but don't mind that!)

The following recent video shows two young French sisters who have been definitively thrown out of school because of their hijab and this ban will soon be followed by other countries.

Please brother and sister tell me what would you do if they were your daughters?

Wassalam

Here is the video but unfortunately it is in French.

[yt]C8LSJg6ozv0[/yt]

Do you think that Muslims can peacefully live in the west or should they just leave?

Do you think that Muslims can peacefully live in the west or should they just leave?

Yes

No

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