Israel Hid Discovery of Muslim Prayer Room Near Excavation Site

[alkathiri]

Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh



Israel Hid Discovery of Muslim Prayer Room Near Excavation Site


RAMALLAH, 19 February 2007 — Israeli archaeologist Yuval Baruch has revealed that remains of an ancient Muslim prayer room was found under the dirt embankment adjacent to Al-Magharbah Gate in 2004.

The findings, unearthed after part of the embankment collapsed into the Western Wall compound, were kept secret until now. The information was withheld from the world but had been known to some Israeli officials. The findings were revealed in an article posted on the Israel Antiquities Authority’s website by Baruch, who works in the Jerusalem district.

In the article entitled “The real story,” Baruch revealed that when the embankment collapsed near the Al-Magharbah Bridge, a small room with a roofed alcove and a dome was unearthed — a type of Muslim prayer alcove facing south. Some have suggested that these are the remains of a prayer room which was originally part of a school for Muslim studies which operated adjacent to the Al-Magharbah Gate. The remains apparently date back to the 11th century, the Salah El-Din era known as the Ayubi Period and of great significance to the Muslim world. This important finding was kept secret for fear the Muslim community would demand that the site, adjacent to the Western Wall compound, be declared sacred.

One of the Muslim arguments against the Israeli excavations taking place near Al-Magharbah Bridge is that the destruction of the embankment would damage Al-Aqsa Mosque. The findings published by the Antiquities Authority are likely to support that argument.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Muhammad Hussein said that “this indicates that the Israeli excavations at Al-Magharbah Gate are not coincidental. “This is an attempt to hide Islamic evidence from the site.” Adnan Husseini, chairman of the Muslim Wakf in Jerusalem, expressed anger that Israel withheld news of the discovery for three years. “We didn’t hear anything about this,” he said.

The head of the Islamic Movement’s northern branch said that this is a proof that the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound is a Muslim Wakf. “The Western Wall — all its various parts, structures and gates and all the names these parts, structures and gates are called — is an inseparable part of the Al-Aqsa compound,” declared Islamist leader Sheikh Raed Salah.

The Western Wall “is part of Al-Aqsa’s western tower, which the Israeli government fallaciously and sneakily calls the Wailing Wall. The wall is part of Al-Aqsa Mosque,” asserted Salah.

Meir Ben Dov, an archaeologist and a Jerusalem researcher, expressed his astonishment Saturday in the wake of the findings. “Our irresponsible behavior has provided Sheikh Raed Salah with ammunition,” he said.

Source: Muslims.net

[fabs]

I think most educated people would take issue with the idea that the Kotel is apart of Al-Aqsa when Solomons temple was built 2000 years ago, long before Islam.
Yes its a shame they didn't tell anyone about what they found but its interesting that they found it.

[Globalpeace]

Fabs,

Muslim beleive in all the Prophets from Adam to Muhammad (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) & Islam didn't start out with Muhammad (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam)

Even if you have to hypothetically assume that the temple belongs to the "Jews"

It was destroyed TWICE and when the Muslims got the area it was NOT standing!

Please quote the history correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_Temple


I think most educated people would take issue with the idea that the Kotel is apart of Al-Aqsa when Solomons temple was built 2000 years ago, long before Islam.
Yes its a shame they didn't tell anyone about what they found but its interesting that they found it.

[fabs]

Let's assume you built your house on a plot of land and heaven forbid collapses once, you rebuild it, it gets destroyed by a bomb the second time...
What would your argument be against somebody coming over and building their house on it? Its on the same plot of land, you didn't want your house destroyed in the first place and you would have rebuilt it if you could have.

[virtualeye]

Let's assume you built your house on a plot of land and heaven forbid collapses once, you rebuild it, it gets destroyed by a bomb the second time...
What would your argument be against somebody coming over and building their house on it? Its on the same plot of land, you didn't want your house destroyed in the first place and you would have rebuilt it if you could have.

If you talk in this sense, then I would ask, were the Israelis born first or Adam (PBUH)? Israelis were not there forever, yet Islam was there when first man (Adam PBUH) came to the world.

Does your fair and balanced CNN and Sky show you the following:

[fabs]

If you talk in this sense, then I would ask, were the Israelis born first or Adam (PBUH)? Israelis were not there forever, yet Islam was there when first man (Adam PBUH) came to the world.

Does your fair and balanced CNN and Sky show you the following:

If your religion tells you 'Islam' was there since Adam, I won't argue futilly. If you believe the covenant God made with the Israelites was but a false interpretation, then I'll leave you to what you believe.


History tells me more than CNN does. Israel was attacked in 1948 and 1967, defeated all the armies of the Middle East and gained the territory, even giving back the Sinai later on back to Egypt.

[loveislam1]

Fabs,
You are looking at the situation without realizing that Solomon was a muslim, ie one who submitted to GOD alone .....therefor it is only fitting that the seal of the propehts A Muslim - Muhammed (his follwers) rebuilt a masjid as a place of prosteration and worhsip after the temple was destroyed by the romans in 70 AC.



http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

BTW Jews and Christians are to be respected and treated in kindness as long as they forbid the wrong and enjoin the right and do justice

[hussain.mahammed]

Mr fabs you better check out this site
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

[fabs]

Fabs,
You are looking at the situation without realizing that Solomon was a Muslim, ie one who submitted to GOD alone .....therefor it is only fitting that the seal of the prophets A Muslim - Muhammed (his followers) rebuilt a masjid as a place of prostration and worship after the temple was destroyed by the romans in 70 AC.



http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

BTW Jews and Christians are to be respected and treated in kindness as long as they forbid the wrong and enjoin the right and do justice

I'll thank you first of all not to post a link to the Neturei Karta in my presence again. These people who claim to be Jews manage to hang around people that plot to kill Jews all over the world. Besides, to even consider these people any more than a minority is wishful thinking.

ok back to the religious discussion(this is really helping my typing):

I believe that all Muslims are monotheists but not all monotheists are Muslims.
Solomon was a Hebrew, an Israelite (what in present day is referred to as a JEW). He followed Jewish law and ruled over the kingdom of Jews.

He rebuilt the Temple and there animal sacrifices were made to the ONE God.
Since it's destruction and until its reconstruction, no more can be made. As far as I know that can't be done in the Dome of the Rock nor in Al-Aqsa.
That's one of the reasons why I can't accept that his work has been continued by the Muslims.

[hussain.mahammed]

Hi fabs
Your information is wrong. Prophet Sulaiman (alahi salam) or Prophet Solomon was not a jew. He was a Muslim.
Know about the Prophets or Messengers according to Islam, not what other literatures say.

[loveislam1]

Salam Alikoum
Mashallah there is ample information there about the covenant fromt eh website that hussain muhammed posted!

fabs may ALLAH give you and and all of us right guidance, may HE open your heart to the truth and remove the veil form your eyes and the doubt in your heart

[fabs]

Hi fabs
Your information is wrong. Prophet Sulaiman (alahi salam) or Prophet Solomon was not a jew. He was a Muslim.
Know about the Prophets or Messengers according to Islam, not what other literatures say.

Salam Alikoum
Mashallah there is ample information there about the covenant fromt eh website that hussain muhammed posted!

fabs may ALLAH give you and and all of us right guidance, may HE open your heart to the truth and remove the veil form your eyes and the doubt in your heart

As I've said, if your beliefs say that Solomon was a Muslim, I won't argue with you. I know what the Bible, the Torah(both predating the Koran) and the secular history books say.

[loveislam1]

Fabs, What was Abraham ali salat wa salam?

[junaid hasan]

my dear brother fabs
i think you have to learn a little bit more about islam and then talk about another topics.
if you dont have the general knowledge about islam then its will be not easy for you understand islam or its will be nor easy for us to show you the information.
if you know who is the god of muslims and god of the all prophets then its will be not hard for you about the topics about al aqsa masjid.
and pray to your creater to help you for understand it easily.
we will all inshallah will make dua for you and also for ourself inshallah.
ameen.

[loveislam1]

The Question Of The Birthright And The Covenant
There is a very, very ancient religious dispute between the Ishmaelites and the Israelites about the questions con- cerning the Birthright and the Covenant. The readers of the Bible and the Qur'an are familiar with the story of the great Prophet Abraham and his two sons Ishmael (Isma'il) and Isaac (Ishaq). The story of Abraham's call from the Ur of the Chaldees, and that of his descendants until the death of his grandson Joseph in Egypt, is written in The Book of Genesis (chapters xi.-l). In his genealogy as recorded in Genesis, Abraham is the twentieth from Adam, and a con- temporary of Nimrod, who built the stupendous Tower of Babel.

The early story of Abraham in the Ur of Chaldea, though not mentioned in the Bible, is recorded by the famous Jewish historian Joseph Flavius in his Antiquities and is also confirmed by the Qur'an. But the Bible expressly tells us that the father of Abraham, Terah, was an idolater (Jos. xxiv. 2, 14). Abraham manifested his love and zeal for God when he entered into the temple and destroyed all the idols and images therein, and thus he was a true prototype of his illustrious descendant Prophet Muhammad. He came out unhurt and triumphantly from the burning furnace wherein he was cast by the order of Nimrod. He leaves his native land for Haran in the company of his father and his nephew Lot. He was seventy-five years old when his father died at Haran. In obedience and absolute resignation to the divine call, he leaves his country and starts on a long and varied journey to the land of Canaan, to Egypt and to Arabia. His wife Sarah is barren; yet God announces to him that he is destined to become the father of many nations, that all the territories he is to traverse shall be given as an inheritance to his descendants, and that, "by his seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed"! This wonderful and unique promise in the history of religion was met with an unshaken faith on the part of Abraham, who had no issue, no son. When he was led out to look at the sky at night and told by Allah that his posterity would be as numerous as the stars, and as innumerable as the sand which is on the shores of the sea, Abraham believed it. And it was this belief in God, that "was counted righteousness," as the Scripture says.

A virtuous poor Egyptian girl, Hagar by name, is a slave and a maid in the service of Sarah. At the bidding and consent of the mistress the maidservant is duly married by the Prophet, and from this union Ishmael is born, as fore- told by the Angel. When Ishmael is thirteen years old, Allah again sends His Angel with His revelation to Abraham; the same promise is repeated to Abraham; the rite of Circumcision is formally instituted and immediately executed. Abraham, at his ninetieth year of age, Ishmael, and all the male servants, are circumcised; and the "Covenant" between God and Abraham with his only begotten son is made and sealed, as if it were with the blood of circumcision. It is a kind of treaty concluded between Heaven and the Promised Land in the person of Ishmael as the only offspring of the nonagenarian Patriarch. Abraham promises allegiance and fealty to his Creator, and God promises to be forever the Protector and God of the posterity of Ishmael.

Later on - that is to say, when Abraham was ninety- nine years old and Sarah ninety, we find that she also bears a son whom they name Isaac according to the Divine promise.

As no chronological order is observed in the Book of Genesis, we are told that after the birth of Isaac, Ishmael and his mother are turned out and sent away by Abraham in a most cruel manner, simply because Sarah so wished. Ishmael and his mother disappear in the desert, a fountain bursts out when the youth is on the point of death from thirst; he drinks and is saved. Nothing more is heard of Ishmael in the Book of Genesis except that he married an Egyptian woman, and when Abraham died he was present together with Isaac to bury their dead father.

Then the Book of Genesis continues the story of Isaac, his two sons, and the descent of Jacob into Egypt, and ends with the death of Joseph.

The next important event in the history of Abraham as recorded in Genesis (xxii.) is the offering of "his only son" a sacrifice to God, but he was ransomed with a ram which was presented by an angel. As the Qur'an says, "That was indeed a clear trial" for Abraham (Qur'an, Ch. 38:106), but his love for God surpassed every other affection; and for this reason he is called the Friend of Allah, "Allah has taken Abraham for a Friend". (Qur'an)

Thus runs the brief account of Abraham in connection with our subject of the Birthright and the Covenant.

There are three distinct points which every true believer in God must accept as truths. The first point is that Ishmael is the legitimate son of Abraham, his first-born, and therefore his claim to birthright is quite just and legal. The second point is that the Covenant was made between God and Abra- ham as well as his only son Ishmael before Isaac was born. The Covenant and the institution of the Circumcision would have no value or signification unless the repeated promise contained in the Divine words, "Throughout thee all the nations of the earth shall be blessed," and especially the expression, the Seed "that shall come out from the bowels, he will inherit thee" (Gen. xv. 4). This promise was fulfilled when Ishmael was born (Gen. xvi.), and Abraham had the consolation that his chief servant Eliezer would no longer be his heir. Consequently we must admit that Ishmael was the real and legitimate heir of Abraham's spiritual dignity and privileges. The perogative that "by Abraham all the gene- rations of the earth shall be blessed, "so often repeated - though in different forms - was the heritage by birthright, and was the patrimony of Ishmael. The inheritance to which Ishmael was entitled by birthright was not the tent in which Abraham lived or a certain camel upon which he used to ride, but to subjugate and occupy forever all the territories extending from the Nile to the Euphrates, which were inhabited by some ten different nations (xvii. 18-21). These lands have never been subdued by the descendants of Isaac, but by those of Ishmael. This is an actual and literal fulfillment of one of the conditions contained in the Covenent.

The third point is that Isaac was also born miraculously and specially blessed by the Almighty, that for his people the land of Canaan was promised and actually occupied under Joshua. No Muslim ever thinks of disparaging the sacred and prophetical position of Isaac and his son Jacob; for to disparage or to lower a Prophet is an impiety. When we compare Ishmael and Isaac, we cannot but reverence and respect them both as holy Prophets of God. In fact, the people of Israel, with its Law and sacred Scriptures, have had a unique religious history in the Old World. They were indeed the Chosen People of God. Although that people have often rebelled against God, and fallen into idolatry, yet they have given to the world myriads of prophets and righteous men and women.

So far there could be no real point of controversy between the descendants of Ishmael and the people of Israel. For if by "Blessing" and the "Birthright" it meant only some material possessions and power, the dispute would be settled as it has been settled by sword and the accomplished fact of the Arab occupation of the promised lands. Rather, there is a fundamental point of dispute between the two nations now existing for nearly four thousand years; and that point is the question of the Messiah and Prophet Muhammad. The Jews do not see the fulfillment of the so-called Messianic prophecies either in the person of Christ or in that of Prophet Muhammad. The Jews have always been jealous of Ishmael because they know very well that in him the Covenant was made and with his circumcision it was concluded and sealed, and it is out of this rancor that their scribes or doctors of law have corrupted and interpolated many passages in their Scriptures. To efface the name "Ishmael" from the second, sixth, and seventh verses of the twenty-second chapter of the Book of Genesis and to insert in its place "Isaac," and to leave the descriptive epithet "thy only begotten son" is to deny the existence of the former and to violate the Covenant made between God and Ishmael. It is expressly said in this chapter by God: "Because thou didst not spare thy only begotten son, I will increase and multiply thy posterity like the stars and the sands on the seashore," which word "multiply" was used by the Angel to Hagar in the wilderness: I will multiply thy offspring to an innumerable multitude, and that Ishmael "shall become a fruitful man" (Gen. xvi. 12). Now the Christians have translated the same Hebrew word, which means "fruitful" or "plentiful" from the verb para - identical with the Arabic wefera - in their versions "a wild ass"! Is it not a shame and impiety to call Ishmael "a wild ass" whom God styles "Fruitful" or "Plentiful"?

It is very remarkable that Christ himself, as reported in the Gospel of St. Barnabas, reprimanded the Jews who said that the Great Messenger whom they call "Messiah" would come down from the lineage of King David, telling them plainly that he could not be the son of David, for David calls him "his Lord," and then went on to explain how their fathers had altered the Scriptures, and that the Covenant was made, not with Isaac, but with Ishmael, who was taken to be offered a sacrifice to God, and that the expression "thy only begotten son" means Ishmael, and not Isaac. Paul, who pretends to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, uses some irreverent words about Hagar (Gal. vi. 21-31 and elsewhere) and Ishmael, and openly contradicts his Master. This man has done all he could to pervert and mislead the Christians whom he used to persecute before his conversion; and I doubt very much that the Jesus of Paul was Jesus, the son of Mary who according to Christian traditions was hanged on a tree about a century or so before Christ, for his Messianic pretensions. In fact, the Epistles of Paul as they stand before us are full of doctrines entirely repugnant to the spirit of the Old Testament, as well as to that of the humble Prophet, Jesus of Nazareth. Paul was a bigoted Pharisee and a lawyer. After his conversion to Christianity he seems to have become even more fanatical than ever. His hatred to Ishmael and his claim to the birthright makes him forget or overlook the Law of Moses which forbids a man to marry his own sister under the pain of capital penalty. If Paul were inspired by God, he would have either denounced the Book of Genesis as full of forgeries when it says twice (xii. 10-20, xx. 2-18) that Abraham was the husband of his own sister, or that he would have exposed the Prophet to be a liar! (God forbid). But he believes in the words of the book, and his con- science does not torment him in the least when he identifies Hagar with the barren desert of the Sinai, and qualifies Sarah as the Jerusalem above in heaven! (Gal. iv. 25, 26). Did ever Paul read this anathema of the Law:-

"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people say: Amen"? (Duet. xxvii. 22).

Is there a human or divine law that would consider more legitimate one who is the son of his own uncle and aunt than he whose father is a Chaldean and his mother an Egyptian? Have you anything to say against the chastity and the piety of Hagar? Of course not, for she was the wife of a Prophet and the mother of a Prophet, and herself favored with Divine revelations.

The God who made the Covenant with Ishmael thus prescribes the law of inheritance, namely: If a man has two wives, one beloved and the other despised, and each one has a son, and if the son of the despised wife is the first-born, that son, and not the son of the beloved wife, is entitled to the birthright. Consequently the first-born shall inherit twice that of his brother. (Duet. xxi. 15-17). Is not, then, this law explicit enough to put to silence all who dispute the just claim of Ishmael to birthright?

Now let us discuss this question of the birthright as briefly as we can. We know that Abraham was a nomad chief as well as a Messenger of God, and that he used to live in a tent and had large flocks of cattle and great wealth. Now the nomad tribesmen do not inherit lands and pastures, but the prince assigns to each of his sons certain clans or tribes as his subjects and dependents. As a rule the youngest inherits the hearth or the tent of his parents, whereas the elder - unless unfit - succeeds him to his throne. The great Mongol conqueror Jenghiz Khan was succeeded by Oghtai, his eldest son, who reigned in Pekin as Khaqan, but his youngest son remained in his father's hearth at Qara- qorum in Mongolia. It was exactly the same with Abraham's two sons. Isaac, who was the younger of the two, inherited the tent of his father and became, like him, a nomad living in tents. But Ishmael was sent to Hijaz to guard the House of Allah which he, together with Abraham, had built as referred to in the Qur'an. Here he settled, became Prophet and Prince among the Arab tribes who believed in him. It was at Mecca, or Becca, that the Ka'aba became the center of the pilgrimage called al-hajj. It was Ishmael that founded the religion of one true Allah and instituted the Circumcision.

His offspring soon increased and was multiplied like the stars of the sky. From the days of Prophet Ishmael to the advent of Prophet Muhammad, the Arabs of Hijaz, Yemen and others have been independent and masters of their own countries. The Roman and Persian Empires were powerless to subdue the people of Ishmael. Although idolatry was afterwards introduced, still the names of Allah, Abraham, Ishmael, and a few other Prophets were not forgotten by them. Even Esau, the elder son of Isaac, left his father's hearth for his younger brother Jacob and dwelt in Edom, where he became the chief of his people and soon got mixed with the Arab tribes of Ishmael who was both his uncle and father-in-law. The story of Esau's selling his birthright to Jacob for a dish of pottage is foul trick invented to justify the ill-treatment ascribed to Ishmael. It is alleged that "God hated Esau and loved Jacob," while the twins were in their mother's womb; and that the "elder brother was to serve his younger one" (Gen. xxv Rom. ix. 12, 13). But, strange to say, another report, probably from another source, shows the case to be just the reverse of the above-mentioned prediction. For the thirty- third chapter of Genesis clearly admits that Jacob served Esau, before whom he seven times prostrates in homage, addressing him "My Lord," and declaring himself as "your slave."

Abraham is reported in the Bible to have several other sons from Qitura and "the concubines," to whom he gave presents or gifts and sent them towards the East. All these became large and strong tribes. Twelve sons of Ishmael are men- tioned by name and described, each one to be a prince with his towns and camps or armies (Gen. xxv.). So are the children from Qitura, and others, as well as those descended from Esau mentioned by their names.

When we behold the number of the family of Jacob when he went to Egypt, which hardly exceeded seventy heads, and when he was met by Esau with an escort of four hundred armed horsemen, and the mighty Arab tribes submitted to the twelve Amirs belonging to the family of Ishmael, and then when the last Messenger of Allah proclaims the religion of Islam, all the Arab tribes unitedly acclaim him and accept His religion, and subdue all the lands promised to the children of Prophet Abraham, we must indeed be blind not to see that the Covenant was made with Ishmael and the promise accom- plished in the person of Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace).

Before concluding this article I wish to draw the atten- tion of the students of the Bible, especially that of the Higher Biblical Criticism, to the fact that the so-called Messianic Prophecies and Passages belong to a propaganda in favor of the Davidic Dynasty after the death of King Solomon when his kingdom was split into two. The two great Prophets Elias and Elisha, who flourished in the Kingdom of Samariah or Israel, do not even mention the name of David or Solomon. Jerusalem was not longer the center of religion for the Ten Tribes, and the Davidic claims to a perpetual reign was rejected.

But Prophets like Ishaia and others who were attached to the Temple of Jerusalem and the House of David have foretold the coming of a great Prophet and Sovereign.

As it was said in the first article, there are certain mani- fest marks with which the coming Last Prophet will be known. And it is these marks that we shall attempt to study in the future articles.

[fabs]

my dear brother fabs
i think you have to learn a little bit more about islam and then talk about another topics.
if you dont have the general knowledge about islam then its will be not easy for you understand islam or its will be nor easy for us to show you the information.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS: I'm not a Muslim so I won't believe Solomon was a Muslim.
That's all there is to it. Solomon was a figure in the Torah a long time before he was in the Koran.

[fabs]

Fabs, What was Abraham ali salat wa salam?

Abraham was the one man chosen by God, to spread the word that God is one as well as found a great nation(later known as the nation(not the country lol of Israel). He rebelled against his father and destroyed the idols in his home. He also circumsized himself according to his belief. He was the father of Isaac and Ishmael.
God tested his faith on the top of Mount Moriah by making him almost sacrifice his son Isaac.

[American Muslim]

I think what fabs is trying to say is that Solomon (PBUH) was ethnically a Jew, just as RasoolAllah (PBUH) was ethnically an Arab. Fabs, Islam recognizes the legitimacy of all the prophets of All Mighty God. The argument I believe we are having is really a political one ie who can or cannot have access to the masjid.
It truly is our responsibility to stand for the rights of our brothers and sisters in Islam. Yet, we know that nothing happens in this world without the permission of Allah Ta'alla. Evidently, he still has a purpose for the Israelis; otherwise that nation would not exist today.

[fabs]

I think what fabs is trying to say is that Solomon (PBUH) was ethnically a Jew, just as RasoolAllah (PBUH) was ethnically an Arab. Fabs, Islam recognizes the legitimacy of all the prophets of All Mighty God. The argument I believe we are having is really a political one ie who can or cannot have access to the masjid.
It truly is our responsibility to stand for the rights of our brothers and sisters in Islam. Yet, we know that nothing happens in this world without the permission of Allah Ta'alla. Evidently, he still has a purpose for the Israelis; otherwise that nation would not exist today.

I've never heard that last sentence from a Muslim before...

[American Muslim]

Mine truly is not to question anything in Allah (swt)'s creation. I follow the sunnah of our beloved Prophet (PBUH). I tell you, if Allah wanted to smite any nation on earth in a nanosecond, who could stop Him? We (all Muslims) are compelled to fend off non believing invaders from occupying Muslim lands.

Why have we not succeeded?

All we can do is strive in the correct actions. Only Allah knows and Allah knows best.

[riyazbhat]

Fully agree with the comments from American Muslim. We all have a part to play and th Jews are there to play their part. :wasalam:

[fabs]

Fine I agree. Could it but be otherwise? No

[loveislam1]

Abraham was the one man chosen by God, to spread the word that God is one
Exactly!

He submitted himself to the will of ALLAH subhana wa ta'ala. He was neither a "Christian" nor a "Jew".

I am surprised by your comments about NK, a organization who wants to see that the "wrongs are righted" so to speak the wrongs commited by by the PM Balford and his "advisors" who gave over "madated land" ultimately giving hegemony to Europeans and NOT the indegenous population of Palestine....

Why would the last sentence be shocking coming from a muslim?

[fabs]

Yes no-one disputes that. He was neither a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew back then when God spoke to him. He was the chosen person by God to spread the news of HIM THAT IS, THAT IS ONE , ( as well as who later founded the nation of Israel, Abraham that is).

The Neturei Karta are a bunch of backward fatalists that think the Diaspora has to last until the end of time. Obviously it hasn't. They stood alongside Ahmadinejad while he denied the Holocaust ever took place. Should I think any better of them?

The sentence was shocking from someone on this forum because it sort of recognizes that Israel is there and that it will have a role to play.

[aliwali]

:salah: :salah: :salah: :salah: :salah: :salah: I think most educated people would take issue with the idea that the Kotel is apart of Al-Aqsa when Solomons temple was built 2000 years ago, long before Islam.
Yes its a shame they didn't tell anyone about what they found but its interesting that they found it.

[American Muslim]

not quite. splitting hairs i know. what i meant was that for whatever reason allah (swt) allows this situation. just look at your own Torah in the book of Ayyub (Job, PBUH). the latter part of those writings is Allah supposedly putting someone in their place for questioning His actions. Personally, I'm just in this world for a little while , and I have no need or desire to question why He does anything.

[Ahmed_2000]

Salaam Allaikum

one thing note is what all these Words Means like

JEWS = Believe in the Religion Known As Judaism

CRISTIANS = Cristianity Comes From the One followed Christ teachings

MUSLIMS = The One Who Submitted to Islam , here i will like to point out that Islam means to Submit in Peace, Sincerity, to the will of Allah and in one god.

So look back and see did Prophet Jessus Christ (AS) Exsist Before Prophet Moses , NO

then Did Prophet Moses (AS) Exsist Before Prophet Lot (AS) No.


Did Prophet Lot (AS) Excist Before Prophet Adam (AS)


the conclusion is they Belive in Islam = Muslim = Believe in one God

Arent Some sects of Cristians having Jesus Christ Statue , Arent They doin Pagan Worshiping (Associating Partners to Allah) , Are Today Jews Following any more in one God and if they do then they will be called Muslim. so to Understand if All Prophets were Muslim or not we should look to what they worship and what does their Religion means.


Any misatake Please Forgive me As I am you Brother in Islam..


Salaam Allaikum

[fabs]

Salaam Allaikum

one thing note is what all these Words Means like

JEWS = Believe in the Religion Known As Judaism

CRISTIANS = Cristianity Comes From the One followed Christ teachings

MUSLIMS = The One Who Submitted to Islam , here i will like to point out that Islam means to Submit in Peace, Sincerity, to the will of Allah and in one god.

So look back and see did Prophet Jessus Christ (AS) Exsist Before Prophet Moses , NO

then Did Prophet Moses (AS) Exsist Before Prophet Lot (AS) No.


Did Prophet Lot (AS) Excist Before Prophet Adam (AS)


the conclusion is they Belive in Islam = Muslim = Believe in one God

Arent Some sects of Cristians having Jesus Christ Statue , Arent They doin Pagan Worshiping (Associating Partners to Allah) , Are Today Jews Following any more in one God and if they do then they will be called Muslim. so to Understand if All Prophets were Muslim or not we should look to what they worship and what does their Religion means.


Any misatake Please Forgive me As I am you Brother in Islam..


Salaam Allaikum

All Muslims are monotheists, not all monotheists are Muslims. So you can't call all believe in one God ISLAM. Since that Islam to my mind was founded by Mohammed, I couldn't seriously consider Abraham, Moses, Solomon and Jesus Muslims.

[loveislam1]

Fabs may ALLAH reward your search and questioning with right guidance

By your very definition Abraham was the one man chosen by God, to spread the word that God is one Abraham is a muslim, one who submitted himself to GOD, isnt that what ALL of the propehts did? Islam or Muslim the pronoun was not introduced until Muhammed salalhu alahi wa salam yes, however, all prophets submitted themselves to GOD alone, hence why we call them muslim.

For instance a muathan-is "one who calls prayer"

the mu is "one who"

so a muslim is "one who submits himself to GOD" which all prophets did.

Ok so you deny that the only book Quran AL Karim the only book in history that has been memorized cover to cover by millions is fabricated work of an unlettered man?

And if you are "Jewish" I use that word in parenthases because I am using the term as it was INTENDED as an ethnicity not a religion.....you do not at all believe in the miraculous conception of Jesus ali salam therefore deny the history of Maryam may GOD be pleased with her?

What is even more ironic for me is this:

Muslims beleive in the return of Jesus ali salat wa salam, while Jews rejected him all together his history and his future return, and yet Christians and Jews are protectors of one another, truly subhanallah!

There is no GOD but ALLAH and Muhammed saallahu alahi wa salam is his servant and messenger.

[hussain.mahammed]

Fabs I am sorry to say but you really have a big problem. Its sad that you are so consfused. I hope you get rid of that soon insha Allah Taala.
Meanwhile you read these thread about WHO IS ALLAH (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2432) and WHAT IS A MUSLIM (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2426)
PLEASE DO READ THEM
Its funny that you seem to say something which you dont act upon. If you really try to know about Islam and Muslims you wont remark like the way you have said in your posts.

[Ahmed_2000]

Salaam Allaikum

Arent Jews still Waiting for someone if i am not Mistaken it is Messiah Or something Else. Who Already Came and Went Long Ago ,and Who was ISA (JESUS) AS . Even Crisitans are Waiting for A Prophet . Who Came And Went Long Ago Who Was Muhammed (SAWS).

And ya ISA(JESSUS) AS Will Return After Mahdi (A Leader to Lead and Unite Muslims) .

Salaam Allaikum.

[fabs]

Fabs may ALLAH reward your search and questioning with right guidance

By your very definition Abraham was the one man chosen by God, to spread the word that God is one Abraham is a muslim, one who submitted himself to GOD, isnt that what ALL of the propehts did? Islam or Muslim the pronoun was not introduced until Muhammed salalhu alahi wa salam yes, however, all prophets submitted themselves to GOD alone, hence why we call them muslim.

For instance a muathan-is "one who calls prayer"

the mu is "one who"

so a muslim is "one who submits himself to GOD" which all prophets did.

Ok so you deny that the only book Quran AL Karim the only book in history that has been memorized cover to cover by millions is fabricated work of an unlettered man?

And if you are "Jewish" I use that word in parenthases because I am using the term as it was INTENDED as an ethnicity not a religion.....you do not at all believe in the miraculous conception of Jesus ali salam therefore deny the history of Maryam may GOD be pleased with her?

What is even more ironic for me is this:

Muslims beleive in the return of Jesus ali salat wa salam, while Jews rejected him all together his history and his future return, and yet Christians and Jews are protectors of one another, truly subhanallah!

There is no GOD but ALLAH and Muhammed saallahu alahi wa salam is his servant and messenger.

No, I don't agree with people labeling all the prophets I believe in after their religion. Hence I don't agree those Prophets were 'Muslims' to use the term.
They submitted themselves to God, of course, but that doesn't make them Muslims in my eyes. Quite frankly, that goes contrary to my beliefs. Did Jesus not drink wine? I think not...

People have learnt songs, movies and other ritual poems by heart, it doesn't necessarily mean there is anything sacred about them.

As I'm not a Muslim, there is no reason why I should believe that the Quran is divine scripture straight from God. Mohammed on the contrary was quite 'lettered', he knew of Christianity and Judaism and was obviously deeply inspired by them. The idea of Jesus being the Messiah obviously came from the Christians as a way to give a certain 'completeness' to the Koran.
Jesus Christ was a great man who cared for the sick and challenged the Pharisees and the religious norms back then.

There's no need to burst into a tirade at the end...

[fabs]

Salaam Allaikum

Arent Jews still Waiting for someone if i am not Mistaken it is Messiah Or something Else. Who Already Came and Went Long Ago ,and Who was ISA (JESUS) AS . Even Crisitans are Waiting for A Prophet . Who Came And Went Long Ago Who Was Muhammed (SAWS).

And ya ISA(JESSUS) AS Will Return After Mahdi (A Leader to Lead and Unite Muslims) .

Salaam Allaikum.

The Jews wait for the Messiah who would bring all of them back to the Holy Land and rebuild the Temple of Solomon, bringing forth a new order and the kingdom of God on Earth.

The Christians wait for Armageddon, the second coming of Christ where the wicked shall perish and the righteous rise up to heaven.


As I've said, Mohammed brought monotheism to the Arabs, inspired by Christianity and Judaism. That's what I believe.

[hussain.mahammed]

I am not asking you to believe what I believe. I am asking you to look into Islam through a Muslim's perspective not through a blind man's eye. Nobody is trying to put you with his or her belief. There are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews in this site. Are we forcing them to be muslims?
I am not forcing you to believe in Islam but learn Islam through what the muslims believe. In that way you will know what is the Quran and Sunnah, how we believe and work upon that, why we believe in it? Ofcourse that will not make you a muslim but you will know the muslims and overall ISLAM more better.
I hope you get that.

[Ahmed_2000]

fabs

I Havent Seen Any Religion Book Where God Has Challenged People . In Quran Theres is The Challange To Those People Who Are in Doubt that Islam is From Muhammed (SAWS) And Not Allah (GOD) . it says





If You Are in Doubt Concerning that Which we Have Sent down (Quran) to Our Slave (Muhammed Peace be Upon him). Then Produce a Surah (Chapter) of the Like Thereof and Call Witness(Supporters and Helpers) Besides Allah, If You are Truthfull.

2: 23 Surah Al Baqarah

But If You do it not, and You can never do it, then Fear the Fire (HELL). Whose Fuel is Men and Stones, Prepared for the Disbelievers

2 :24 Surah Al Baqarah

[hussain.mahammed]

The Jews wait for the Messiah who would bring all of them back to the Holy Land and rebuild the Temple of Solomon, bringing forth a new order and the kingdom of God on Earth.

The Christians wait for Armageddon, the second coming of Christ where the wicked shall perish and the righteous rise up to heaven.


As I've said, Mohammed brought monotheism to the Arabs, inspired by Christianity and Judaism. That's what I believe.

You can believe in whatever you like. In fact you can start your people of followers. Inspired by the major religions of the world, bring your own book etc etc.

Will that make any sense?

Important thing is not to believe whatever you like but believe in what is the truth.

I dont want to speak about the remarks you made about Judaism or CHristianity. But I hope you remove your statement what you mentioned about Prophet Muhammed (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). He was not inspired by Christianity or Judaism? Do you know what it means to be inspired by? I wish I could provide the video I watched by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat. If you can watch some of his videos with an open heart and mind, you would learn a lot.

[fabs]

fabs

I Havent Seen Any Religion Book Where God Has Challenged People . In Quran Theres is The Challange To Those People Who Are in Doubt that Islam is From Muhammed (SAWS) And Not Allah (GOD) . it says





If You Are in Doubt Concerning that Which we Have Sent down (Quran) to Our Slave (Muhammed Peace be Upon him). Then Produce a Surah (Chapter) of the Like Thereof and Call Witness(Supporters and Helpers) Besides Allah, If You are Truthfull.

2: 23 Surah Al Baqarah

But If You do it not, and You can never do it, then Fear the Fire (HELL). Whose Fuel is Men and Stones, Prepared for the Disbelievers

2 :24 Surah Al Baqarah

I was just reading the surah and verse in my Translated Version.
I'm not sure what the challenge is though. If compiled by the same set of people of course only the same set of people could produce something similar.

[loveislam1]

Fabs,
Muhammed was not "inspired" by Christianiaty nor Judaism, Quran is the direct word of GOD given to Muhammed salalhu alahi wa salam through the angel gabriel. No I dont expect you to believe what we beleive autmotically, I pray for your guidance based on your intention that only ALLAH subhana wa ta'ala can see and know and truly only HE can guide you.... not us.

Tirad? I was just stating factual things that are amazing to me that increase my own level of iman. inshallah

[Abdul-Raheem]

Al-Kafiroon
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Say: O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)

It doesn't look like this is getting anywhere so lets just leave it at that.

[fabs]

You can believe in whatever you like. In fact you can start your people of followers. Inspired by the major religions of the world, bring your own book etc etc.

Will that make any sense?

Important thing is not to believe whatever you like but believe in what is the truth.

I dont want to speak about the remarks you made about Judaism or CHristianity. But I hope you remove your statement what you mentioned about Prophet Muhammed (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). He was not inspired by Christianity or Judaism? Do you know what it means to be inspired by? I wish I could provide the video I watched by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat. If you can watch some of his videos with an open heart and mind, you would learn a lot.

No I will not retract it, as that's the way it seems to me. Back then those were the 2 main dominant religions in the region (apart for polytheism, ancestor worship, and idolatry). There were many Jewish tribes in the region, the Roman Empire had become Christian... Thats the historical background I keep in mind.

[Ahmed_2000]

Fabs

You are Reading Translation and not real Quran ..

Real Quran is in Classical Arabic (Fussa)

The Translator Translates differently..

Its the same as Ingil Which was Translated and now The Translation is Known as Bible.

I am Usin Noble Quran.

But I Ususally Use Quran Trannslation in Roman English.. If You Want I can Write From thier..

[ibn azem]

I was just reading the surah and verse in my Translated Version.
I'm not sure what the challenge is though. If compiled by the same set of people of course only the same set of people could produce something similar.
Hi there

The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below …

"If the Mankind and the Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another."
(Qur'an 17:88)

“And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed From time to time to Our Servant, then produce a Surrah Like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, If your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot –And of a surely you cannot. Then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – Which is prepared for those who reject Faith.”
(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24)

Ever since the Qur'an was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur'an in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes.

Also, note that the smallest chapter in the Qur'an (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad (PBUH) was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so.

To further stress this challenge; Surrah Al Kawthar in the Qur'an, it is the smallest Surrah in the Holy Qur'an, and is composed of only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet the challenge to produce one Surrah like the chapters of the Holy Qur'an.

"Indeed We have given you Al Kawthar (heavenly fountain), So pray to your Lord (Allah), and sacrifice to Him, Surely the who hates you, is the one cut off.

Another example of the challenge of Qur'an is that Allah (Most Gracious) has foretold in the Qur'an some event that later came to pass, like the victory of the Romans over the Persians within three to nine years after the Romans were defeated by the Persians. God has said in the Qur'an:

" The Romans have been defeated in the nearest land (to the Arabian Peninsula), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious within bedd’ (three to nine) years..."
(Qur'an, 30:2-4)

[fabs]

Not knowing Arabic, thats the closest I can get. DUH!

[ibn azem]

No I will not retract it, as that's the way it seems to me. Back then those were the 2 main dominant religions in the region (apart for polytheism, ancestor worship, and idolatry). There were many Jewish tribes in the region, the Roman Empire had become Christian... Thats the historical background I keep in mind.
Hi again

We should keep in mind that:

1. There was no Arabic translation of the Bible available during the Prophet’s time. For a detailed account of this subject, read the article: Is The Bible Really The Source of The Qur’an? (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBbible.html)
Ernst Würthwein informs us in his book, The Text Of The Old Testament:
“With the victory of Islam the use of Arabic spread widely and for Jews and Christians in the conquered lands it became the language of daily life. This gave rise to the need of Arabic versions of the Bible, which need was met by a number of versions mainly independent and concerned primarily for interpretation.” (Ernst Würthwein, The Text Of The Old Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1988, pp. 104.)

Thus, the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic dates from the first half of the ninth century.

What about the New Testament?
Sidney H Griffith, who has done extensive research on the appearance of Arabic and the New Testament says:
“The oldest dated manuscript containing the Gospels in Arabic is Sinai Arabic MS 72. Here the text of the four canonical Gospels is marked off according to the lessons of the temporal cycle of the Greek liturgical calendar of the Jerusalem Church. A colophon informs us that the MS was written by Stephen of Ramleh in the year 284 of the Arabs, i.e., 897 AD.” (Sidney H Griffith, The Gospel in Arabic: An Enquiry into Its Appearance in the First Abbasid Century, Oriens Christianus, Volume 69, p. 131-132.)

2. It is well-known that the Prophet did not know how to read or write: he was illiterate. So there was no question of his plagiarizing the Bible, even if an Arabic copy did in fact exist in his time. What then of the charge that he was taught by some Christians?

Allah the Almighty answered the criticism fourteen centuries ago in these verses, which say what means: *{Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say [aught] of [his own] desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by One Mighty in power.}* (An-Najm 53:2–5)
To deny the divine origin of the Qur’an missionaries claim that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) knew all the sources—Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Hanif and ancient Arab beliefs—before he compiled the Qur’an. However, this ignores the simple fact of his illiteracy that was even acknowledged by the enemies of Islam 1400 years ago. Allah the Almighty also answered this in the Qur’an, when it says what means: *{And thou wast not [able] to recite a Book before this [Book came] nor art thou [able] to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed would the talkers of vanities have doubted. Nay here are signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our signs.}* (Al-`Ankabut 29:48–49).
Despite all this, the missionaries have been repeating the same arguments, hoping to mislead the gullible. It was common knowledge in Makkah that the Prophet was illiterate, and there is no record of the pagan Arabs in Makkah accusing Muhammad (peace be upon him) of not being illiterate.

[Ahmed_2000]

Salaam Allaikum

I Know One Case When One Weird Guy Tried to Challange and Started Defining Elephant Lol . What was he Thinking. There have been many people Who Tried But Failed.

Salaam allaikum

[fabs]

Hi there

The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below …

"If the Mankind and the Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another."
(Qur'an 17:88)

“And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed From time to time to Our Servant, then produce a Surrah Like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, If your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot –And of a surely you cannot. Then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – Which is prepared for those who reject Faith.”
(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24)

Ever since the Qur'an was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur'an in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes.

Also, note that the smallest chapter in the Qur'an (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad (PBUH) was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so.

To further stress this challenge; Surrah Al Kawthar in the Qur'an, it is the smallest Surrah in the Holy Qur'an, and is composed of only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet the challenge to produce one Surrah like the chapters of the Holy Qur'an.

"Indeed We have given you Al Kawthar (heavenly fountain), So pray to your Lord (Allah), and sacrifice to Him, Surely the who hates you, is the one cut off.

Another example of the challenge of Qur'an is that Allah (Most Gracious) has foretold in the Qur'an some event that later came to pass, like the victory of the Romans over the Persians within three to nine years after the Romans were defeated by the Persians. God has said in the Qur'an:

" The Romans have been defeated in the nearest land (to the Arabian Peninsula), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious within bedd’ (three to nine) years..."
(Qur'an, 30:2-4)

Had it been written by God, I'm sure He could have done better than '3 TO 9' years and been more precise.
Yes apparently the Koran is a poetic masterpiece, that's why it took so long to compile. Mohammed didn't write it down overnight or in the next few days or weeks did he?
Of course noones been able to compile something similar, for fear of being stoned to death for blasphemy. As for the 'disbelieving' Arabs, I'm sure that the dispute was rather solved by arms than ideas by trying to write a second holy book.

[fabs]

Hi again

We should keep in mind that:

1. There was no Arabic translation of the Bible available during the Prophet’s time. For a detailed account of this subject, read the article: Is The Bible Really The Source of The Qur’an? (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBbible.html)
Ernst Würthwein informs us in his book, The Text Of The Old Testament:
“With the victory of Islam the use of Arabic spread widely and for Jews and Christians in the conquered lands it became the language of daily life. This gave rise to the need of Arabic versions of the Bible, which need was met by a number of versions mainly independent and concerned primarily for interpretation.” (Ernst Würthwein, The Text Of The Old Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1988, pp. 104.)

Thus, the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic dates from the first half of the ninth century.

What about the New Testament?
Sidney H Griffith, who has done extensive research on the appearance of Arabic and the New Testament says:
“The oldest dated manuscript containing the Gospels in Arabic is Sinai Arabic MS 72. Here the text of the four canonical Gospels is marked off according to the lessons of the temporal cycle of the Greek liturgical calendar of the Jerusalem Church. A colophon informs us that the MS was written by Stephen of Ramleh in the year 284 of the Arabs, i.e., 897 AD.” (Sidney H Griffith, The Gospel in Arabic: An Enquiry into Its Appearance in the First Abbasid Century, Oriens Christianus, Volume 69, p. 131-132.)

2. It is well-known that the Prophet did not know how to read or write: he was illiterate. So there was no question of his plagiarizing the Bible, even if an Arabic copy did in fact exist in his time. What then of the charge that he was taught by some Christians?

Allah the Almighty answered the criticism fourteen centuries ago in these verses, which say what means: *{Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say [aught] of [his own] desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by One Mighty in power.}* (An-Najm 53:2–5)
To deny the divine origin of the Qur’an missionaries claim that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) knew all the sources—Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Hanif and ancient Arab beliefs—before he compiled the Qur’an. However, this ignores the simple fact of his illiteracy that was even acknowledged by the enemies of Islam 1400 years ago. Allah the Almighty also answered this in the Qur’an, when it says what means: *{And thou wast not [able] to recite a Book before this [Book came] nor art thou [able] to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed would the talkers of vanities have doubted. Nay here are signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our signs.}* (Al-`Ankabut 29:48–49).
Despite all this, the missionaries have been repeating the same arguments, hoping to mislead the gullible. It was common knowledge in Makkah that the Prophet was illiterate, and there is no record of the pagan Arabs in Makkah accusing Muhammad (peace be upon him) of not being illiterate.

Well I didn't say Mohammed 'copied' the Bible. It's well known that the Bible back then was only in Latin and Greek. However the teachings of the bible, and of Jesus were well known through Roman influence.
And of course the Torah was known about through the Jewish Tribes, even if we were to ignore the fact that there's a Middle-Eastern culture to the Jews and the region back then anyway, making it known to even non-Jews.
Probably this explains why the Koran doesn't contain entire passages from the
Bible as the Christian Bible does of the Torah.

[ibn azem]

Hi there

Are you being sarcastic there?!


Anyway, the three to nine years is a translation of the meaning in english for the proper arabic word, which does not say literally that way in arabic.

And Muhammad (saws) did not write it down, it was his trustworthy companions r.a. and it has been passed on to us through so many chains of transmission (mutawatir), for which there is sufficient evidence that noone can acuse them of having made up a lie.

And as for the "fear" that you refer to, you should know that it was for 13 years of the time of Muhammad's (pbuh) prophethood, where he together with other muslims was the one to live under presecution and not vice-versa, until he had to migrate to Medina.

[Ahmed_2000]

How Do You Explain the Scientific Things Decribed in Quran.

Like How is baby looking when in the Womb of Mother. and that the Earth is not Round but Slightly Tilted.

if it was a Baduin From desert than Can He Be Scintist then. Think about It.

[ibn azem]

Well I didn't say Mohammed 'copied' the Bible. It's well known that the Bible back then was only in Latin and Greek. However the teachings of the bible, and of Jesus were well known through Roman influence.
And of course the Torah was known about through the Jewish Tribes, even if we were to ignore the fact that there's a Middle-Eastern culture to the Jews and the region back then anyway, making it known to even non-Jews.
Probably this explains why the Koran doesn't contain entire passages from the
Bible as the Christian Bible does of the Torah.
Hi,

That is not correct. You forget that the Qur'an says that the Tawrat (Torah) and the Injeel (the Gospel) are the previous Books to previous people from the same Creator Fabs. So if there is common ground shared by the Bible with the Qur'an then it shows that the Bible hasn't been changed there.

[fabs]

Hi,

That is not correct. You forget that the Qur'an says that the Tawrat (Torah) and the Injeel (the Gospel) are the previous Books to previous people from the same Creator Fabs. So if there is common ground shared by the Bible with the Qur'an then it shows that the Bible hasn't been changed there.

I'm not sure what of what I said was incorrect. The Koran doesn't contain direct passages of the Bible, many similar contents and stories of course, but it is a work independant of the original Torah and Gospel.

[Ahmed_2000]

The Best Thing Will Be Sit Somewhere And With A Clean Heart ANd Intention Ask God To Guide you. Inshallah May he Guide you.

[fabs]

Hi there

Are you being sarcastic there?!


Anyway, the three to nine years is a translation of the meaning in english for the proper arabic word, which does not say literally that way in arabic.

And Muhammad (saws) did not write it down, it was his trustworthy companions r.a. and it has been passed on to us through so many chains of transmission (mutawatir), for which there is sufficient evidence that noone can acuse them of having made up a lie.

And as for the "fear" that you refer to, you should know that it was for 13 years of the time of Muhammad's (pbuh) prophethood, where he together with other muslims was the one to live under presecution and not vice-versa, until he had to migrate to Medina.

The word meaning 3 to 9 years still is a bit short of precise.
Even assuming it was a divine message, how were his companions infallible to human error when transferring it? Well, enlighten me, what evidence?

I think Mohammed had other things to do than inspect possible 'challenges'.
And when he had the upper hand, any person that opposed him would have been ignored or punished anyway.

[dna1987]

It's not surprising. The mention of any Palestinian population living in Jerusalem is not even mentioned in any school textbooks. They want to keep any historical sites that are solid proof of Muslims living in the region to be kept hidden.

And their propaganda has worked well, many people outside Israel actually think that no Arab/Muslim leader even ever went to Jerusalem!! The picture they try and paint is one that the Ashkenazi (white Europeans) Jews lived in the region all this time..and they officially declared the place Israel in 1948. Let's just forget to mention the millions that were murdered and forced to leave their cities, and the thousands of homes that were destroyed and replaced with "Jewish Only" cities.

[Imad]

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wbarakatuh,

Thank you brothers and sisters for your effort. Someone who believes judaism or christianity is the right religion, has taken the rabbis and the monkes as Lords besides Allah.
In the Tora and Injiel (gospel) was guidance and light, but the jews and Christians denied this guidance and light. They altered the Tora and Injiel, because they wanted to follow their own desires like fabian.

If fabian dies as a jew or a christian he will enter Jahanam ( Hell) and he will abide therein forever.

The Prophet Sallalahu 3alaihi wassalem said: "By Him in whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell Fire". [Muslim].

Every prophet that came to the jews they denied him. They denied our prophet moesa (moses) and denied also our prophet Isa ( jesus) May the blessings and peace of Allah be with all the prophets. Do you know they wanted to kill Isa ( Jesus)?

It's their hatred towards the prophet. Don't be astonised by what fabian has written. Allah mentiones exact what's in their heart.

do you know the story of abdullah ibn Salaam. Read the ahadieth wish are mentioned in Sahih el Bukhari.

No. 3674 - Narrated Anas:

When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam, he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." ibn salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

On this, 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and that you are the Apostle of Allah." and added, "O Allah's Apostle! Jews invent such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to I slam . " The Jews came, and the Prophet said, "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam among you?" They replied, "The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us. "The Prophet said, "What would you think if 'Abdullah bin Salam should embrace Islam?" They said, "May Allah protect him from that." The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer. Then 'Abdullah came out to them and said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah!" On this, the Jews said, "He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us." So they degraded him. On this, he (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Salam) said, "It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah's Apostle.



and more and more ...........................


"And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky…" (6:125).


Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatollahi wabaraktoh

[fabs]

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wbarakatuh,

Thank you brothers and sisters for your effort. Someone who believes judaism or christianity is the right religion, has taken the rabbis and the monks as Lords besides Allah.
In the Tora and Injiel (gospel) was guidance and light, but the jews and Christians denied this guidance and light. They altered the Tora and Injiel, because they wanted to follow their own desires like fabian.

If fabian dies as a jew or a christian he will enter Jahanam ( Hell) and he will abide therein forever.

The Prophet Sallalahu 3alaihi wassalem said: "By Him in whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell Fire". [Muslim].

Every prophet that came to the jews they denied him. They denied our prophet moesa (moses) and denied also our prophet Isa ( jesus) May the blessings and peace of Allah be with all the prophets. Do you know they wanted to kill Isa ( Jesus)?

It's their hatred towards the prophet. Don't be astonised by what fabian has written. Allah mentiones exact what's in their heart.

do you know the story of abdullah ibn Salaam. Read the ahadieth wish are mentioned in Sahih el Bukhari.

No. 3674 - Narrated Anas:

When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam, he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." ibn salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

On this, 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and that you are the Apostle of Allah." and added, "O Allah's Apostle! Jews invent such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to I slam . " The Jews came, and the Prophet said, "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam among you?" They replied, "The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us. "The Prophet said, "What would you think if 'Abdullah bin Salam should embrace Islam?" They said, "May Allah protect him from that." The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer. Then 'Abdullah came out to them and said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah!" On this, the Jews said, "He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us." So they degraded him. On this, he (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Salam) said, "It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah's Apostle.



and more and more ...........................


"And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky…" (6:125).


Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatollahi wabaraktoh


I'll drink to that :SMILY259: :SMILY128:

Oh and Christianity doesn't have 'monks' as clericsso to speak (I thought you meant monkeys at first) Christians have Priests.

Well believe what you want. Somebody wrote down the holy books. Who is to say the Koran wasn't altered(to say it lightly) too for SOMEBODY's needs?

[dna1987]

Check your history girl, there were no millions murdered. The war started when nascent Israel was attacked by its neighbours, the beligerents promised the Arab population that they could return when Israel was destroyed so they left their homes en masse, along with rumours flying around of Israeli atrocities circulated by the Arab media. What happened? Israel survived and the promises made by the Arab countries couldn't be kept, so they were stuck in refugee camps as the Arab countries never accepted them as citizens in their countries.

What is Al-Nakba? Video. History Check. (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3531)

Here's a brief look into history for everybody.

And for the record,

Let's just forget to mention the millions that were murdered and forced to leave their cities.

I said millions were murdered and also forced to leave. "And" means I'm describing the number of people that were forced to leave their homes as well.


EDIT: adding this part.

Who is to say the Koran wasn't altered(to say it lightly) too for SOMEBODY's needs?

The Quran has been fully memorised from the first word to the last, since it was revealed, by many Muslims in every generation. Who's going to alter it? If one person says something different, or adds something different, there will be plenty of other people who know the REAL Quran of by heart, that will correct the mistake.

[dna1987]

The fact that it's using the name 'Al Nakhba' is enough of an indication that you already have a side.

Yes, you make a very good point :rolleyes:

It has have an English name to be true. Seriously, I don't know how to prove a point to you if you're going to use logic like this to back up your theories.

[virtualeye]

The fact that it's using the name 'Al Nakhba' is enough of an indication that you already have a side. So what? Showing a bunch of pictures of refugees, with biased messages mixed in contitutes an argument? The only picture worth any historical note is the massacre of Deir Yassin where a fringe group of Jewish terrorists(Irgun), a minority. That was 1 incident whose news caused the Arab population to flee. They weren't 'ethnically cleansed', there are no mass graves to be uncovered all over Israel. However I could mention the anti-Jewish riots of 1929, where 133 Jews were killed. The trouble had been boiling for while.
As I said you, the bias is widespread.


Achtung Achtung !!!

I think your short term memory is weak. 1800 Muslim men, woman and children were massacred in the camps of Sabirah and Shatilah in 1989. I have the video about that too, in which even the UN personnel are also sreaming and crying to see the cruelty of cruelties. I wonder you are really that innocent that you forget all such incidences? Or only remember what keeps you charged against Muslims?

Owners of all major world media are Jews, yet bias for Muslims? how nice.

[Andalusian]

the Koran is a poetic masterpiece, that's why it took so long to compile.


It seems that liars and hypochrites will all the time try to find bad issues, to renew their tactics and to read history from one side so as to blaspheme Islam.
Yet liars and hypochrites were and will be in each time and in each land and the worst of them were in the time of the Prophet Mohamed :saw: . But they failed and incha'Allah they will fail, no matter how they look confident on their dark side.
But incha'Allah they will never succed till the last day because in each age and in each time Islam will exist till Allah will take the soul of the last muslims on the earth, as they go to sleep.
Then, in this time, He Allah will let only some of like those arrogant people alone on earth, only ones who act like this and who have this dark side.

The Quran were written in the time of the Prophet :saw: by his compagnions but the most important thing that they did is to learn it by heart. It's like today a lot of people know by heart each word and each letter from the Quran without need to read them from the Quran and we can write the same Quran without using any copy.


"We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the ungodly), behold! no respite would they have! We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."
al-Hijr N°15 verse n° 8-9


"Say (Mohamed :saw:) : "My Lord knoweth (every) word (spoken) in the heavens and on earth: He is the One that heareth and knoweth (all things).Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, he forged it! - Nay, he is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!"
The Prophets (al-Anebiya')N°21 verse n°4-5


"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur-an making things clear: That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth)."
Ya Seen N°36 verse n°69-70.


"Say thou (Mohamed :saw: ) : "Await ye! I too will wait along with you!"Therefore remind: for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou (Mohamed :saw: ) art no soothsayer, nor possessed.Or do they say: -A poet! We await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!"
The Mountain (at-Tur) N°52 verse n°29-31


"So I (Allah your Lord) do call to witness what ye see, And what ye see not, That this is verily the word of an honored messenger; It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe! Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive.(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds."
The Sure Calamity (al-Haqqa)N°69 verse n°39-43


Preservation and Authenticity of the Holy Quran
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3731&highlight=Othman