Renouncing Islam in Malaysia

[visionusman]

Read the following story and tell me what you think.

"A Malaysian Chinese couple are considering taking legal action against a hospital for sending them home with the wrong baby nearly 30 years ago.

The couple, who had always suspected a mix-up, were reunited with their biological son after a chance meeting in a shopping centre.

But the family may now face a battle with Malaysia's religious authorities.

As well as taking a Chinese name, the son wants to renounce Islam - something which is very difficult in Malaysia."

My point of view on the matter is that renouncing Islam is an act of treason in Islam. The people who object to the punishment Islam has set forth for this crime in an Islamic country, should remind themselves that even the states who claim to champion the cause of Human Rights, have the capital punishment for acts of treason; for instance if an American is caught fighting the coalition in Afghanistan.

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
The man should be given a mental examination (to see if he's not insane). Afterwards, he should get 3 chances to renounce his ways and join Islam again. If not, then let him go. I haven't seen any references in the Qur'an or Hadith about killing a man for it, and neither have some scholars it seems like.

[shaz_1999]

I c where ur cumin 4rm but at da end of da day wen or if he sees sense he will wnt 2becme a muslim again, we should pray dat he will be shown da rite path.

Also hw do we knw dis iz true we hav no evidence of it I have only just herd bat it and am finkin hav ppl made it up or nt. Im not so sure.

Anyway if it is true den he still hasnt turnd away 4rm Islam yet so Inshallah he will be shwn da rite path.

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

I haven't seen any references in the Qur'an or Hadith about killing a man for it, and neither have some scholars it seems like.

The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islaamic Sharee’ah. The one who leaves Islaam will be asked to repent by the Sharee’ah judge in an Islaamic country; if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kaafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

It is well-known in Sharee’ah that the punishments (hudood) are not carried out on minors, because they have not yet reached the age of responsibility; but in the case of those who have reached the age of responsibility, the punishment (hadd) applies, without a doubt.

The person who knows the truth and believes in it, then turns his back on it, does not deserve to live. The punishment for apostasy is prescribed for the protection of the religion and as a deterrent to anyone who is thinking of leaving Islaam. There is no doubt that such a serious crime must be met with an equally weighty punishment. If the kuffaar do not give people the freedom to cross a red light, how can we give freedom to people to leave Islaam and disbelieve in Allaah when they want to?


May Allaah make you and us bearers of His Message and defenders of His Sharee’ah.




Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
"Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

I've read about someone disproving that one saying that Muhammad (:saw:) wouldn't have said that and not have killed all the Sahabah (who changed their religion to Islam).

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?
Question:
As a non Muslim, I find myself Intrigued and attracted to your faith. However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a man can be sentenced to death for speaking( Salman Rushdie). I would have thought that we as humans do not have that right to make those decisions, only god can?

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

We thank you for your confidence in us and for sending this question to us, and we appreciate your being intrigued by our beliefs and your eagerness to find out the answer. We welcome you as a visitor and reader and learner.

What stood out from your letter is that you are impressed with the religion of Islam. This is a good sign for us and for you. We are happy for our religion to reach people like you who are seeking for the truth. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that this religion would reach all places on this earth. It was narrated that Tameem al-Daari said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘This matter (i.e., Islam) will certainly reach everywhere that night and day reach, and Allaah will not leave any house or tent [i.e., all dwellings, in towns and in the desert], but Allaah will cause this religion to enter it, and some people will be honoured because of it and others will be humiliated because of it [for refusing to embrace it], and they will be ruled by the Muslims, an honour which Allaah will bestow on Islam and a humiliation which He will inflict on kufr (disbelief).”

(Narrated by Ahmad, 16344; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 3).

In your case, your admiration for Islam will motivate you to find out what this pure monotheistic religion teaches, and how it is in accordance with sound human nature and common sense. We advise you to avoid completely and preconceptions that may influence you and take your time in reading about the teachings of the Islamic religion. Perhaps you could read material on this site about Islam, such as questions no. 219, 21613, 20756, 10590.

With regard to your question, “However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a man can be sentenced to death for speaking. I would have thought that we as humans do not have that right to make those decisions, only god can” – what you say is correct, because no-one has the right to condemn another person to death without evidence from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

The ruling of execution because of a word that somebody utters is what the Muslim scholars call al-riddah (apostasy). What is apostasy and what constitutes apostasy? What is the ruling on the apostate (al-murtadd)?

1 – Riddah (apostasy) refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that (i.e., which imply kufr or disbelief), or he does something that implies that (i.e., an action which implies kufr or disbelief).

2 – What constitutes apostasy

The matters which constitute apostasy are divided into four categories:

(a) Apostasy in beliefs, such as associating others with Allaah, denying Him, or denying an attribute which is proven to be one of His attributes, or by affirming that Allaah has a son. Whoever believes that is an apostate and a disbeliever.

(b) Apostasy in words, such as insulting Allaah or the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

(c) Apostasy in actions, such as throwing the Qur’an into a filthy place, because doing that shows disrespect towards the words of Allaah, so it is a sign that one does not believe. Other such actions include prostrating to an idol or to the sun or moon.

(d) Apostasy by omission, such as not doing any of the rituals of Islam, or turning away from following it altogether.

3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed [B]by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”

[al-Nisa’ 4:59]

And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”

It may need some time for you to be convinced about this matter, and for you to think about it. Perhaps you think that if a person follows the truth and enters into it and embraces the one true religion which Allaah has enjoined, then we allow him to leave it quite easily whenever he wants and to utter the words of kufr (disbelief) that put him outside of Islam, so he can reject Allaah, His Messenger, His Books and His religion, and there is no punishment as deterrent, how will that affect him and others who enter the religion?

Do you not see that this would make the one true religion, that everyone should follow, like a shop or store which a person can enter when he wants and leave when he wants, and it may encourage others to forsake the truth.

Moreover, this is not someone who has never known the truth and practiced it and worshipped in accordance with it; rather this is a person who has known the truth, and practiced the religion and done the rituals of worship, so the punishment is no greater than he deserves. Moreover, such strong rulings as this are only applied to such a person whose life is no longer considered to be useful, because he knew the truth and followed the religion, then he left it and forsook it. What soul can be more evil than the soul of such a person?

In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed. This ruling does not come from the Muslims’ ideas or suggestions. As this is the case, then we must follow the ruling of Allaah so long as we are content to accept Him as our Lord and God.

May Allaah help us and you to do that which He loves and which pleases Him. We thank you once again.

Peace be upon those who follow true guidance.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
JazakAllahu Khair wa BarakAllah.

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

Jazak Allah khair wa barak Allah feeka to you too.

:shake:

[Dawoodi]

This is so simple.


what’s the punishment for the sheitan? the one who after he had believe and new the truth decided to cover it up and treason or beloved Allah Subhanah wata'allah?

Is it dead? And hell? weo ... dose this only apply to the jinn? or to the humans sheitans too?.

the answer is logical that after a person who has believe in Islam and neglect this truth he must be punish for it.

this disbelieve has so many implications because after a person commits apostasy he would not rest until other Muslims leave Islam or will try to confuse other Muslims too.

the one who neglects Islam simple becomes a sheitan and evil person.

as some one say if any secular country punish with death any person that betray his mother land and we are talking here of secular politics and government, what would it be the punishment for the one who treason his brothers and sisters and moreover Allah ta'allah and his prophet?.

Allah subhanah wata'allah knows best.

:SMILY209:

[Child of GOD]

That is just soooooo totally unjust to KILL cuz of someone renouncing the islam faith,,that is where OUR GOD draws the line...whatever or whoever one worships in life is their decision however wrong or bad it may be, and yes even as a christian it is my duty to show them the right way however to MURDER someone cuz of this just shows the difference of compassion between christians and muslims,,,God is the FINAL JUDGE ,,, not any of us,,It IS NOT up to us to judge..........we only can pray and try to show any person the truth and the light, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MURDER FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE A CHOICE AT THAT PERSONS EXPENSE, THATS JUST ludicrous,,give me a break and everyone says the christians are wrong,,thank you for showing me your true selves in its ok by ALLAH to murder one who freely chooses what religion to follow,,you have know idea how that makes muslims look...and you wonder why people don't trust muslims geezzzz

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
Well, get over it. People are killed every day by governments because they help another government. People are in fact killed because they convert away from Christianity (though it is wrong) in some places.

Islam isn't just a religion, it's a way of life and it's a government. Therefore, the Apostate is seen as a traitor, and traitors get killed. Should you not agree with the fact that traitors should be killed, then you will renounce every single government in history and also you will renounce the Union during the Civil War.

HOWEVER, know that it isn't as simple as: "You converted to Christianity! You die now!". In the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) tells us that Moses (PBUH) was with a man who killed a youth. Later, the man told Moses that the boy was an unbeliever and that he constantly messed up the unity of the pious.

Musaylama, the man who claimed to be prophet after Muhammad (:saw:), started fighting the Muslims first. Therefore, Physical Jihad came into play (defending yourself against attacks).

So, if a man is as peaceful as heck and he converts away from Islam, then he doesn't die immediatly, if at all. Usually, people are put to death because they are constantly trying to disturb the Muslims' Unity.

Even then, only Apostates are to be killed if they do this. Missionaries and Preachers are not to be killed.

[Child of GOD]

There has NEVER been one report in THE UNITED STATES of anyone stooping so low as to MURDER a christian cuz he/she converted to some other religion,,get your facts straight

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
Know that the Hadith are sometimes everlasting, and are sometimes not. The Prophet (:saw:) said things in tune with the revelations revealed to him. Remember that Allah Alone can abrogate Himself (as in change His commands). So, the command may have changed.

If we look at Islam back then, we see that it was a large political and military movement back then. Now, it has no reason to be (as we aren't in an extremely large Physical Jihad, Allah be praised). Should a man convert away from Islam during the time of Muhammad (:saw:), then he should be killed because he would have gone back to the Pagans and helped the Pagans against the Muslims.

HOWEVER, nowadays, it can be different. It is different. A man who converts from Islam and is peaceful about it shouldn't be killed, but a man who converts from Islam and tries to hurt the Muslims physically, then he should be killed (for it is true Physical Jihad to defend yourself).

The Hadith's commands may or may not be everlasting, but the Qur'an's commands are. The Qur'an doesn't say to kill the Apostates, mind you.

[Child of GOD]

There has NEVER been one report of a person being MURDERED in the UNITED STATES for switching to a different religion..that is JUST SICK!,,,WHY not start MURDERING people cuz they eat apples or cuz they drive a truck and not a car,,be realistic,,that is so BARBARIC.

[Child of GOD]

GOD IS THE ONLY JUDGE , NOT YOU , NOT ME, NOT MUSLIMS, NOT CHRISTIANS!!!!!

[NewMuslim]

There has NEVER been one report in THE UNITED STATES of anyone stooping so low as to MURDER a christian cuz he/she converted to some other religion,,get your facts straight

As Salaamu Alaykum
99.9% of the Christians today aren't "Christians", especially since the women don't wear Hijabs (ordered by Paul to do so), aren't silent until the male orders them to speak (ordered by Paul to do so), pray 24/7 except when eating or sleeping (ordered by Paul), and they eat pork (forbidden in the Old Testament).

Look at this, though:
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

[visionusman]

That is just soooooo totally unjust to KILL cuz of someone renouncing the islam faith,,that is where OUR GOD draws the line...whatever or whoever one worships in life is their decision however wrong or bad it may be, and yes even as a christian it is my duty to show them the right way however to MURDER someone cuz of this just shows the difference of compassion between christians and muslims,,,God is the FINAL JUDGE ,,, not any of us,,It IS NOT up to us to judge..........we only can pray and try to show any person the truth and the light, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MURDER FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE A CHOICE AT THAT PERSONS EXPENSE, THATS JUST ludicrous,,give me a break and everyone says the christians are wrong,,thank you for showing me your true selves in its ok by ALLAH to murder one who freely chooses what religion to follow,,you have know idea how that makes muslims look...and you wonder why people don't trust muslims geezzzz
Your Lord and mine are not different. We both believe in the one Allmighty. As for the capital punishment; remember it is a punishment that is pronounced after a due legal process. In an Islamic state (which by the way unfortunately does not exist), the Islamic law allows for the death sentence for acts of treason.

This was made incumbent for those people who after accepting Islam and spending time with the Prophet SAW in the muslim state of Medina, at the time of wars or trials switched their allegience and sided with the Quraish of Mecca. This was treason and the muslim state suffered immensely because the people who did this also acted as spies narrating secrets of war (such as how many people had prepared for war, how many horses and what kinds of weaponry they had at their disposal). So you see this was a a punishment for treason. Still is. That is why I ask you what will happen to an American who converts to Islam and decides to fight the coalition in Iraq and actually kills a few american soldiers in the process? Will there not be calls for the capital punishment for this man? Why did Bush say that the world was better off after the execution of Saddam. I am opposed to Saddam myself, and by the way did not think it wrong that he faced the death sentence, however Bush claims to be a devout catholic. Yet he did not condemn the death sentence. Instead rejoiced in it. I support the death sentence and therefore do not feel the need to be two faced. yet you expect the rest of the world to trust America? Cool!

[Child of GOD]

As Salaamu Alaykum
99.9% of the Christians today aren't "Christians", especially since the women don't wear Hijabs (ordered by Paul), are silent until the male orders them to speak (ordered by Paul), pray 24/7 except when eating or sleeping (ordered by Paul), and they eat pork (forbidden in the OT).QUOTEEEEEEE



AGAIN BACK to the an old thread where someone said women are not oppressed,,now you by that quote are proving me right, women are oppressed,,NO WHERE in the Bible does it say women have to WEAR hijabs or have to be silent....The book of RUth , strong woman in faith,, Esther in the Bible was a wise strong woman.....and the pork thing back then was simply cuz of disease, modern technology has taken that factor out,,,,God told us that so we wouldn't get sick,,now modern day age has taken the factor of sickness out which was really the main reason to not eat pork!....Christian women WERE NEVER ordered to wear hijabs...and YES I AM A CHRISTIAN!!
At least I would never MURDER someone for changing faiths or having a different faith than mine,,,like I said 3 or 4 times nows,,"GOD AND GOD ALONE IS OUR JUDGE AND JURY,,GOD WILL DECIDE OUR PUNISHMENT NOT A simple man! We can only pray and try to show the light and the truth to those that stray. Bottom line, every person has FREE WILL,,,ITS up to them to make the right decisions or risk being left out of Gods kingdom eternally.

[NewMuslim]

AGAIN BACK to the an old thread where someone said women are not oppressed,,now you by that quote are proving me right, women are oppressed,,NO WHERE in the Bible does it say women have to WEAR hijabs or have to be silent....The book of RUth , strong woman in faith,, Esther in the Bible was a wise strong woman.....and the pork thing back then was simply cuz of disease, modern technology has taken that factor out,,,,God told us that so we wouldn't get sick,,now modern day age has taken the factor of sickness out which was really the main reason to not eat pork!....Christian women WERE NEVER ordered to wear hijabs...and YES I AM A CHRISTIAN!!
At least I would never MURDER someone for changing faiths or having a different faith than mine,,,like I said 3 or 4 times nows,,"GOD AND GOD ALONE IS OUR JUDGE AND JURY,,GOD WILL DECIDE OUR PUNISHMENT NOT A simple man! We can only pray and try to show the light and the truth to those that stray. Bottom line, every person has FREE WILL,,,ITS up to them to make the right decisions or risk being left out of Gods kingdom eternally.

As Salaamu Alaykum
I understand your position. Allah Willing, I'll show you the verses where Paul orderes those things.

Also, remember what I have written in my second post on this page. There was a reason for killing Apostates, but now that reason is void so killing Apostates shouldn't be necessary unless the Apostate is going to try to hurt the Muslims physically. The words in the Hadith apply to a certain situation sometimes, while the words of the Qur'an apply everywhere, everytime (unless there is an exception mentioned in the Qur'an).

[visionusman]

As Salaamu Alaykum
99.9% of the Christians today aren't "Christians", especially since the women don't wear Hijabs (ordered by Paul to do so), aren't silent until the male orders them to speak (ordered by Paul to do so), pray 24/7 except when eating or sleeping (ordered by Paul), and they eat pork (forbidden in the Old Testament).

Look at this, though:
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)
Please stop this. We do not want to be in an argument with christains that they are wrong. Only justify our stance. Arguments are usually counter productive. To Child of God I would suggest that she reads my last message on this thread.

I welcome an intelligent exchange of views. Not arguments.

[NewMuslim]

As Salaamu Alaykum
On women:
1 Corinthians 11:5
And for a woman to pray or prophecy with her head uncovered shows disrespect for her head. It is exactly the same as if she had her hair shaved off.

1 Corinthians 11:6
Indeed, if a woman does go without a veil, she should have her hair cut off too.

1 Corinthians 11:7
But for a man it is not right to have his head covered, since he is the image of God and reflects God's glory; but a woman is the reflection of man's glory.

1 Corinthians 14:34
As in all the churches of God's holy people, women are to remain quiet in the assemblies, since they have no permission to speak: theirs is a subordinate part.

1 Corinthians 14:35
If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly.

1 Timothy 2:11-12
During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet.

Pretty disgusting words by Paul. In the Qur'an, Allah says that He has granted men some abilities that women can't do, and He has granted women some abilities that men can't do. However, Allah says that they are all equal, and that the woman may be more intelligent than the man.

Ephesians 5:22-23
Wives should be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is the husband the head of his wife.

Ephesians 5:24
And as the Church is subject to Christ, so should wives be to their husbands, in everything.

1 Corinthians 11:3
The head of woman is man.

On pork:

[B]"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
[Leviticus 11:7-8]



"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

A similar prohibition is repeated in Isaiah 65:2-5

[Child of GOD]

I just love how when I post my "VIEW" its construed as arguementive and just not my opinion ,,I'm not shoving christianity down anyones throat here but when I read all these posts and then comment after MUCH DEEP THOUGHT, you accuse me of being arguementive, you are wrong, my posts are based on what I see being posted here, the inconsistenticies and my personal belief. Hence ,,'MY OPINION'"

[Abdul-Raheem]

These 'Inconsistencies' you see are those of people, not Islam. Bear that in mind.

peace

[Mabsoot]

There has NEVER been one report in THE UNITED STATES of anyone stooping so low as to MURDER a christian cuz he/she converted to some other religion,,get your facts straight

Hello C.O.G

Tell that to the black People who were murdered and enslaved, to the Iraqis who are dying from the US bombs and the Radiation sickness given to them from your President.

listen, I ask that you stop and write only when you are not angry or upset. Really, there is no use in writing in such a state. You should take a step back and look at where the truth lies. INstead of writing down allegations and slandering Muslims. (Millions of whom live in the USA and contribute to your Country in more ways than you could imagine!)

If you want to talk Facts, ;) I am a great person to do that, and I could be here alllll dayyy !!

In Islam, nobody can take the life of another person or take matters into their own hands.

With regards Apostacy, that is another issue, and NOBODY to my knowledge said anything about killing people on this website !!

It is to be understood from a pure Islamic perspective, based on the Quran and Sunnah. Not from what some non-Muslims conjure up, or what some uneducated Muslims say. - And what do those same Non-Muslims say about the people killed for treason? There were people executed by Electric Chair for having German Papers and alledgedly being German Spies in the USA. People were killed in the second world war for simply not being brave on the frontlines..... Islam is a religion based on mercy and compassion. Those people who say bad things about it are targetting it from either ignorance or malice as there is no valid reason whatsoever to do so.

The simple matter is that Islam is a complete way of life that dictates everything from how we interact with others, to our obedience to the Islamic law. And the Punishment of death for apostacy is not General One. It is not For Muslims to go about doing. It is not judged or meted out by anyone, but it is done in an Islamic state, after due process. Which means, that the person has time to reconsider and also for the Islamic court to judge if the person is a threat to those in the country.

For the people, who did reject the Peace agreements, the pledges made to the Muslims or perhaps even the Religion, especially at the time of the Prophet:saw: mostly ended up allying with the other side and fighting. A person who rejects Islam, is rejecting a way of life. One must know exactly what is intended by such an action.

And for Muslims living in Muslim OR non-Muslim lands, then they have no right to say anything bad or do any harm to a person who rejects Islam. IF they are in an Islamic state, then it is for those incharge to deal with the situation as mentioned previously.

And finally, the Person will be judged by Allah for how they rejected the best Gift they were bestowed with.

Allah Knows Best.

-----

Having said that, EVERY civillisation had Treason laws, but NOT anywhere near as Perfect as this Islamic Law of course. Although, there are an overlap of reasoning between the Laws of Treason and the laws of those who become Murtad (leave Islam), there is a difference. That difference is that Islamic law is perfect, and is from God, whilst your laws are flawed.

Its ironic when people from the most barbaric countries in the World, the biggest sponsors of State terrorism and those with a record of racism and unjust cruelty to others can come and lecture and besmurk others with their ill-thought out ignorant statements lambasting all Muslims and the most beautiful and perfect faith of Islam. What have you or any other person to gain from that? THese ideas come from those who Hate Muslims due to their Ignorant and Arrogant Religious bigotry (i.e. Christian and Jewish Fundamentalists) and from those who Make lots of Money from it!! (i..e Bush, the Neo Cons and the Media in their pocket who wish to make Muslims look evil, bad and a THREAT, in order to carry out their illegal invasions and wars) . although, it is also true that the Neo Cons are also Religious fundamentalists.

Do you know what the Anti Miscengation Laws were??? Those were American Law forbidding Black and White people from marrying. It was a punishable offence!! And it was based on their interpretation of the Bible!

In 1965, Virginia trial court Judge Leon Bazile sentenced to jail an interethnic couple who had married in Washington, D.C., writing: Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. Tucker, Neely (June 13, 2006)

There are many other interesting historic notes to fact. People get held down in Chairs and electrocuted in the USA. Sometimes, it didnt work too good, and people's bodies caught on fire! Sometimes they had to be electrocuted several times before they died. Often they would scream so loud, the guards would faint!! and the hideous smell would make people vomit. ANd yes, there were people convicted as Nazi Spies, who were Electrocuted in the 20th Century for being Spies.. For being Against the USA and its Constitution, for being a Threat to the country and its people.

- To me, that is a barbaric way of dealing with people. Why are there hundreds of millions of barbaric and backward things you can ignore whilst concentrating on making flawed and ill-thought out comments about Islam??

Muslims are closer to Jesus than ANY other Person can ever be. Remember that. Muslims are closer to Abraham than any other person can ever be. Remember that. Muslims are closer to Jesus than anyone else can ever be. We are closer to GOD.. Why??? BEcause we worship Allah alone, without associating partners to him. We worship and Obey Allah's commands that he sent down in the Quran, we love ALL his Messengers including the final Messenger and Seal of the Prophets... Muhammad :saw:. May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him. That is the Miracle and beauty of Islam.

We are Tolerant, peace-loving people who love the World, its people, its creatures and the wildlife. We are not the ones running away from the Koyoto Agreement. lol.

I think that you should stop and not think yourself better than other people. We are all Human beings who make mistakes. We are all created for one purpose, and that purpose is to worship Allah alone without associating partners with him (that includes believing he has a Son, Worshipping JEsus, Mary or any Saints.. and that includes accepting his last and final Messenger Muhammad (:SAW:) and a PROPHET sent to mankind with Allah's message of Islam.)

I and most other Muslims have absolutely nothing against American people. We have nothing against people of other faiths. However, we are misrepresented in the media because we wish to have our Rights. We wish to stop our lands being occupied and pilfered by those who live upon deceit and treachery. We wish to have "Freedom", No not the freedom that Bush and Blair are lying about, but real freedom. Where we can be Muslims who live upon the Quran and the sunnah, where we do not have fear of an Israeli War plane bombing our homes to turn into a Kibbutz, or a US war plane bombing our villages to turn into oil fields. - So, It is not us who have to get our facts right, but for you to rub your eyes and see the world in the reality that it is in.

An Iraqi child dying from DEPLETED URANIUM Poisoning from US Bombs. Millions of innocent Iraqi Men, Women and children AND Generations to come, suffer from the same fate.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/turntoislam/iraq/leukemia.jpg


Wasalam.

[basheer76]

That is just soooooo totally unjust to KILL cuz of someone renouncing the islam faith,,that is where OUR GOD draws the line...whatever or whoever one worships in life is their decision however wrong or bad it may be, and yes even as a christian it is my duty to show them the right way however to MURDER someone cuz of this just shows the difference of compassion between christians and muslims,,,God is the FINAL JUDGE ,,, not any of us,,It IS NOT up to us to judge..........we only can pray and try to show any person the truth and the light, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MURDER FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE A CHOICE AT THAT PERSONS EXPENSE, THATS JUST ludicrous,,give me a break and everyone says the christians are wrong,,thank you for showing me your true selves in its ok by ALLAH to murder one who freely chooses what religion to follow,,you have know idea how that makes muslims look...and you wonder why people don't trust muslims geezzzz

Well,
Imagine somebody who is a muslim; when he wants to do a big sin, he says I'm not muslim any longer, to avoid the punishment then he says " now I'm a muslim" to fully benefit from the heritage, for example; It really becomes a big issue here. The christians and the jews, for example, are considered "Ahl Ad'dhimma" means they can live in a muslim country and keep their religion; and also means, the muslim country has the obligation (in islam) to protect them and give them the wellfare just like any other people ( muslims ). It does not make sense that, for example, somebody changes religion very easily from Islam, to christianity to judaism which ruling will be applied to him?!. So, as long as Islam is concerned, no body forces any body to become a muslim and no body forces any body to stay a muslim; but, if you live in a muslim country where everthing is ruled by the Shari'a and it's whole system that must stay consistent in its ruling, you don't have the right to quit islam and still live in the muslim country; if you wonna quit Islam then quit the country and you are free to live anywhere else no body will come and kill you because the Shari'a is applied only in the muslim country.

[virtualeye]

There has NEVER been one report in THE UNITED STATES of anyone stooping so low as to MURDER a christian cuz he/she converted to some other religion,,get your facts straight

Ok let me clear you in one post and then I will bring some other argument in my separate post.

American invades other countries and kills thousand.
If America kills any of his traitor on the basis of either or both of two things:

1- On the basis of Christianity.
2- On the basis of Patriotism.

If American Government kills a person on the basis that he is traitor to the Christianity (crusade thinking) , then their 'motive' of killing is christianity.

If not, then If American Government kills a person who is traitor of the patriotism then their Patriotism is the motive of killing

What do you do for the sake of your faith, we do much less than that. We dont throw 20000 pound bombs just to kill one person.

Traitor is much severe thing, I would ask how can you justify a person being killed for just being not friend of your country and you object Muslims who give chances to the traitor to repent, and kill him as a last option.


What is required to kill??? A Motive against traitor.
That motive in your case is either Patriotism or Christinity
and
traitor to Belief in one God in Muslims case.

Muslims are never asked to kill the people who were never Muslims unless they spread misery.


Please consider above comments by placing yourself at our position. Or you can place yourself being an Afghani who does not even know there is a country named America, but his all family has been killed in 'Carpet bombing' Then you will know what is call Hypocrisy and Unjistice in the name of "Democracy", "Human Rights".


And war which is fought at out side America is very easy an your people will yell around to say "Oh, we are proud to be americans, We love America". Proud till when? until that war is fought at the teritory of America.

I am proud to be American, but donno why people hate Americans?
If a couple hundred thousand Muslims die by the 20000 pound bombs of America, then I am proud to be American. And if only 2500 Americans die in wtc, OH MAAAAN ! Muslims are terrorists.


I mean no offense, but people should sometimes imagine what whould be their thinking if they would be in the position of the other person.


And by the way, how many people have been killed who left Islam??? you could count them within your finger. Yet you give a damn about bigger issue of the killings of hundreds of thousands.

Is this what you mean by fairness and Muslims being rude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAKi_5ctMCo


Wassalaam,

VE

[virtualeye]

Thanks for your time in reading my previous email, inflaming though but keep in mind, truth is often bitter.

Please be attentive now for the the following example and be your judge yourself.


Here's the problem with anti-islamists and most of non-Muslims:

If Islam says fight to diminish cruelty (and that is the way of God) and these anti-islimists immediately catch the word 'fight' and say Islam preaching hatered.

Now why does this above happen, Take an example:

Please carefully read the following conditions.

1- Given that a religion 'A' is the only true religion (way of life) acceptable to God.

2- It is told in this religion 'A' to fight and fight/kill those few infidels so that they cant harm manifold number of humans on earth.

3- Given that condition '2' is called the ways of God, then God asks people to fight in 'the way of God' and promises them the reward of fearless and eternal peacful paradise.

4- That religion 'A' covers the guidance on all the aspects of human living. It not only tells how to rule the humans, it not only tells how to behave in community and family but even it tells how to do daily little things in better way (even the minor looking things like manners of using washroom). While other religions dont cover many many aspects and are either theme based and are abstract, or they have human's intervension/curruption on them.

5- That religion 'A' Does not have any explicit sexual (literal or metaphorical, whatsoever) language in its scriptures while other some religions have.

6- That religion 'A' gives the most harsh punishments for the crimes which can be fatal for the society immediately as well as in the long run. So that religin 'A' stands the maximum resistent for the crimes and cruelty (by ordering capital punishments even considered very harsh by opposers of that religion 'A').

7- Given the condition '1', the devil will try his maximum to increase the hatered of that religion in the non-believers of religion 'A'. Also devil will try to decieve the believers of religion 'A' so that they weaken their faith (in that religion 'A').

8- That religion 'A' accepts some other scriptures to be from the Creator (God) but currupted by the Men with the passage of time, while that religion 'A' retains its scripture 100% intact alphabet by alphabet , to date.

9- Given that the '1' is true, i.e. religion 'A' is the only true religion of Creator, then all the evil forces will use their maximum energies to oppose that and decieve the people against that using what ever means such as Media Hipociry, Weaponary, False Allegations against them as well as declaring them terrorist on the basis of some decieved/weak believers of religion 'A'. While those evile forces commint terrorism by themselves, e.g. killing freedom of other nations in the name of 'freedom of speach' or 'democracy' or 'war on terror'.

10- Given the condition '1', i.e. that religion 'A' is the only true religion of God, it will ofcourse preach his believers to diminish cruelty by force, while this same religion asks not to take revenge as an individual, warn about the panalty of God for the believers who commint Un-Just acts. At the same time, this religion 'A' warns the believers of the order of death panalty if they kill any single human Un-Just. This same religion 'A' gives the respect to the females of its believers by telling them to cover their body while warning the men to lower their gaze if they coincidently happen to look at femals. That same religion 'A' orders the maximum capital punishment to the person who commits the worst crimes of humanity (and fat to society in the long run) such as rape, adultery, murder and theft.

11- That religion 'A' has many its holy book having many signs for the people of wisdom including many scientific predictions which would only be known to creator in the time if revelation of this religion. Those prediciton could only be known to man in very recent history such as 20th and 21st century.


Please have assumption of the condition '1' in your mind and brainstorm on all of the points.

which is the only religion having that?


I

[apocalypse77]

Read the following story and tell me what you think.

"A Malaysian Chinese couple are considering taking legal action against a hospital for sending them home with the wrong baby nearly 30 years ago.

The couple, who had always suspected a mix-up, were reunited with their biological son after a chance meeting in a shopping centre.

But the family may now face a battle with Malaysia's religious authorities.

As well as taking a Chinese name, the son wants to renounce Islam - something which is very difficult in Malaysia."

My point of view on the matter is that renouncing Islam is an act of treason in Islam. The people who object to the punishment Islam has set forth for this crime in an Islamic country, should remind themselves that even the states who claim to champion the cause of Human Rights, have the capital punishment for acts of treason; for instance if an American is caught fighting the coalition in Afghanistan.

the thing is doing this is gonna tarnish islam's "peaceful" reputation you see.im not trying to say we shld please the kuffar but the thing is, does the quran really say killing pple who renounce islam?

[virtualeye]

the thing is doing this is gonna tarnish islam's "peaceful" reputation you see.im not trying to say we shld please the kuffar but the thing is, does the quran really say killing pple who renounce islam?


No killing for the person who leaves Islam, but for those who start announcing to everyone and start preaching for what what reasons they are leaving. And who starts fighting against Islam even once he was Muslim.

Traitors of any nation are liable to death by that nation in many cases. Then how about traitor to Islam?

Take the example of a citizen of UK. What if a citizen of UK starts declaring the hatered for the UK and says that he will fight against it? Or what if he starts doing spying against UK? or what if that person goes to the enemies of UK and supports them fully against UK? These are defintions of a traitor. And no establishment loves its traitors. Then how about the traitor to the Only Creator?

Being not a citizen of a country and hating that coutry is ok. But being citizen of that country but doing the conspiracies to the establishment will be really dreadfull for you. Mind it.

Wasslaam,
VE

[apocalypse77]

No killing for the person who leaves Islam, but for those who start announcing to everyone and start preaching for what what reasons they are leaving. And who starts fighting against Islam even once he was Muslim.

Traitors of any nation are liable to death by that nation in many cases. Then how about traitor to Islam?

Take the example of a citizen of UK. What if a citizen of UK starts declaring the hatered for the UK and says that he will fight against it? Or what if he starts doing spying against UK? or what if that person goes to the enemies of UK and supports them fully against UK? These are defintions of a traitor. And no establishment loves its traitors. Then how about the traitor to the Only Creator?

Being not a citizen of a country and hating that coutry is ok. But being citizen of that country but doing the conspiracies to the establishment will be really dreadfull for you. Mind it.

Wasslaam,
VE


i know what you mean..speaking ill of islam after renoucing islam is an act of betrayal.

but what about those pple who never speak ill of islam after converting to other religions?(na uzhubillah)

[virtualeye]

i know what you mean..speaking ill of islam after renoucing islam is an act of betrayal.

but what about those pple who never speak ill of islam after converting to other religions?(na uzhubillah)

They should not declare it then. Keep mum. :SMILY138:

[Aapa]

Salam,

Child of God...this will be short...I have to prepare dinner I am a mother!
Please before you point fingers at other faiths...re-examine some of the reasons why the Purtians and Pilgrims came to America. They needed religious freedom..think about the First Amendement...your right to worship...now let's step back. The bloodshed of the Counter-reformation is interesting. The number of Protestants killed by the Catholic Church. The Reformation was quite famous for bloodshed. Please research the Joan of Arc drama. In the recent past is not the Catholic/Protestant killing in Ireland really about my faith is better than yours? I forgot to mention the number of priests killed by the Catholic Church in the 1980's. And while we are going down history lane...what about the Waco incident. The Christian Americans murdered pregnant women and chidren who were wayside Christians....please do not look at the mote in your neighbours eye while a log resides in yours.

[Bluegazer]

Hello C.O.G.,


You posted the following on post #10 on this thread:

That is just soooooo totally unjust to KILL cuz of someone renouncing the islam faith,,that is where OUR GOD draws the line...whatever or whoever one worships in life is their decision however wrong or bad it may be, and yes even as a christian it is my duty to show them the right way however to MURDER someone cuz of this just shows the difference of compassion between christians and muslims,,,God is the FINAL JUDGE ,,, not any of us,,It IS NOT up to us to judge..........we only can pray and try to show any person the truth and the light, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MURDER FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE A CHOICE AT THAT PERSONS EXPENSE, THATS JUST ludicrous,,give me a break and everyone says the christians are wrong,,thank you for showing me your true selves in its ok by ALLAH to murder one who freely chooses what religion to follow,,you have know idea how that makes muslims look...and you wonder why people don't trust muslims geezzzz


So, you believe that it's not allowed in the Christian faith to execute apostates?


Then please explain the following verses of the Bible [which Christians believe to be the Word of God Almighty]:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version)


anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Leviticus 24:16 (New International Version)


So, how could you blame Islam for the punishment of apostasy when Christianity also has this punishment?


It just goes to show that when you said, "That is just soooooo totally unjust to KILL cuz of someone renouncing the islam faith,,that is where OUR GOD draws the line", you really had no idea about the Biblical verses I mentioned above.


And in the history of Christianity, Christians did indeed implement this punishment, even in cases where Christians left one denomination to join another denomination [e.g. from Catholicism to Protestantism]. Read another post I have written which speaks about this history by clicking on the following link:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58513&postcount=8


I agree with what sister mirajmom has posted in post #32 on this thread:

Please before you point fingers at other faiths...re-examine some of the reasons why the Purtians and Pilgrims came to America


The following is a video by Bilal Philips which explains the punishment of apostasy in Islam:

lBJmm-nfEow


Regards,

Bluegazer

[Momof3]

Interesting thread.

I believe the Quran says "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out free from error" I am not muslim, but have read much of the Quran.

I don't believe that people should be executed for renouncing a religion, however, I did not come to debate that.

What I would like to point out is... Christians fail to see the violence and "barbaric" things in their own Bible. It's no difference than the Quran.
It just really depends on how literally you follow that word. I don't believe all of it applies to how we live today. I just think it's important to not point fingers at Muslims, because if we Christians followed the OT word-for-word, we would be just as strict.


As for Christian headcovering. Personally, I LOVE hijab!!
I wish I could wear it and I always smile at muslimahs because I LOVE that they are modest. I wish it wasn't just a muslim thing. Honestly!
And you are right about the verses in 1 Corinthians. I am a Catholic and many Catholic women still cover their head in church. I am too afraid to cover because I live in a liberal area and nobody covers here. People just stare like you are weird. However, I try to dress in hijab when I can because I value my modesty. It's for my husband to see only!
So, muslims, many other people respect hijab.

I just wanted to point out one more thing.

Christians don't follow the Old Testament laws. Jesus said that they didn't matter. He basically is the new law, so that is why after Jesus came, men didn't need to get circumcised and there were no dietary restrictions.
Jesus was the new covenant. Jesus also said that God created all creatures and none of his creations were unfit to eat.

Just pointing out why Christians eat pork.

Thanks!

Salaam Alaikum