Saudi Arabia & witchcraft

[Al-Indunisiy]

:salam2:

I was just browsing through the Internet and found this:

Saudi Arabia: Witchcraft and Sorcery Cases on the Rise
Cancel Death Sentences for “Witchcraft”

November 24, 2009
Other Material: Precarious Justice

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case."Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police...The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."
.Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director .

(Kuwait City) - The cassation court in Mecca should overturn the death sentence imposed on Ali Sabat by a lower court in Medina on November 9 for practicing witchcraft, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called on the Saudi government to cease its increasing use of charges of "witchcraft" which remains vaguely defined and arbitrarily used.

Ali Sabat's death sentence apparently resulted from advice and predictions he gave on Lebanese television. According to Saudi media, in addition to Sabat, Saudi religious police have arrested at least two others for witchcraft in the past month alone.

"Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."

Religious police arrested Ali Sabat in his hotel room in Medina on May 7, 2008, where he was on pilgrimage before returning to his native Lebanon. Before his arrest, Sabat frequently gave advice on general life questions and predictions about the future on the Lebanese satellite television station Sheherazade, according to the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar and the French newspaper Le Monde. These appearances are said to be the only evidence against Sabat.

Saudi newspaper Al-Madina reported on November 15 that a lower court in Jeddah started the trial of a Saudi man arrested by the religious police and said to have smuggled a book of witchcraft into the kingdom. On October 19, Saudi newspaper Okaz reported that the religious police in Ta'if had arrested for "sorcery" and "charlatanry" an Asian man who was accused of using supernatural powers to solve marital disputes and induce falling in love.

In March 2008, Human Rights Watch asked a high-ranking official in the Ministry of Justice to clarify the definition of the crime of witchcraft in Saudi Arabia and the evidence necessary for a court to prove such a crime. The official confirmed that no legal definition exists and could not clarify what evidence has probative value in witchcraft trials. Saudi Arabia has no penal code and in almost all cases gives judges the discretion to define acts they deem criminal and to set attendant punishments.

In February 2008, Human Rights Watch protested the 2006 "discretionary" conviction and sentencing to death for witchcraft of Fawza Falih, a Saudi citizen. Minister of Justice Abdullah Al al-Shaikh responded that Human Rights Watch had a preconceived Western notion of shari'a, but did not answer the organization's questions about Falih's arbitrary arrest, coerced confession, unfair trial, and wrongful conviction. She remains on death row in Quraiyat prison, close to the border with Jordan, and is reportedly in bad health.

November 10, Okaz reported that the Medina court had also issued the verdict for Sabat on a "discretionary" basis. Both Sabat and the Saudi man accused of smuggling books of witchcraft reportedly confessed to their "crimes." Sabat had no lawyer at trial and only confessed because interrogators told him he could go home to Lebanon if he did, according to May al-Khansa, his lawyer in Lebanon.

In another case, a Jeddah criminal court on October 8, 2006 convicted Eritrean national Muhammad Burhan for "charlatanry," based on a leather-bound personal phone booklet belonging to Burhan with writings in the Tigrinya alphabet used in Eritrea. Prosecutors classified the booklet as a "talisman" and the court accepted that as evidence, sentencing him to 20 months in prison and 300 lashes. No further evidence for the charge was introduced at trial. Burhan has since been deported, after serving more than double the time in prison to which the court had sentenced him.

On November 2, 2007, Saudi Arabia executed Mustafa Ibrahim for sorcery in Riyadh. Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in the northern town of `Ar'ar, was found guilty of having tried "through sorcery" to separate a married couple, according to a Ministry of Interior statement.

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

In 2007, Saudi Arabia passed two laws restructuring judicial institutions, and in 2009 began implementing what it said was a comprehensive judicial reform under Minister of Justice Muhammad al-‘Isa, who was appointed in February 2009. However, Saudi Arabia has still not codified its criminal laws, and efforts to update the criminal procedure law, which lacks guarantees against forced confessions such as the right not to incriminate oneself, have not yet come to fruition.

Human Rights Watch opposes the use of the death penalty in all circumstances, due to its inherently cruel nature. International standards, for example as expressed in resolution 1984/50 of the UN Economic and Social Council, require all states that retain the death penalty to limit its imposition to the "most serious" crimes.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?

[ahmed_indian]

:salam2:

I was just browsing through the Internet and found this:


My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?

:wasalam:,

if the authority raid his/her home and finds dolls with needles inserted into it, unknown signs, unusual written words, or someone informs about it, that person can be convicted of witchcraft.

[Al-Indunisiy]

I also found this while browsing. It's a letter from the Human Rights Watch to King Abdullah on the case of Fawza Falih. The parts which I underlined are what I consider as bearing tangent to my OP question.

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case
February 13, 2008

HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud
Royal Court
Riyadh 11111
Saudi Arabia

Your Royal Highness,

Human Rights Watch urges you to immediately halt the execution of Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali, currently imprisoned in Quraiyat Prison. Fawza Falih has exhausted her appeals and her relatives in Jordan believe the papers are currently in your office awaiting your approval of the execution.


The court in Quraiyat, on April 2, 2006 (3/3/1427), sentenced her to death by beheading for the alleged crimes of ““witchcraft, recourse to jinn [supernatural beings], and slaughter” of animals.

Your Highness, the conviction of Fawza Falih for “witchcraft” is a travesty of justice and reveals severe shortcomings in Saudi Arabia’s justice system. The crime of “witchcraft” is not defined by law; judges breached safeguards for a fair trial in existing Saudi law; and there were significant procedural flaws throughout the trial which effectively eradicated her ability to defend herself against the ill-defined charges against her.
We remain convinced that Fawza Falih has not committed any crime at all. First, it is not clear what the actual elements if any of the crime of “witchcraft” are, and the offence is not defined in Saudi law. As you know, Saudi Arabia does not have a written penal code that spells out the elements of a given crime. The accusation of witchcraft appears to have been based upon a broad, vague concept, which cannot be said to constitute “law”. Under international human rights law, persons suspected of crimes may only be charged with offenses as established by law, and which are sufficiently clear so that everyone has the possibility to understand clearly what behavior it is that will cause them to violate that law.

Furthermore, in addition to the lack of a clear definition of “witchcraft” in Saudi law and the absence of a written penal code in which to search for such a definition, the judges in the court of Quraiyat did not define the meaning of “witchcraft”, but instead cited a variety of alleged actions, stated intentions, and “tools” for “witchcraft” in a weak attempt to suggest that “witchcraft” had indeed taken place. The court cited one instance in which a man allegedly became impotent after being “bewitched.” In another, a divorced woman reportedly returned to her ex-husband during the month predicted by the witch said to have cast the spell. The court failed to probe alternative explanations for these developments which appear to be ordinary phenomena. Indeed drawing on the illustrations cited by the courts, it is evident that the practice of “witchcraft”, if it exists, is by its nature impossible to prove, since it involves the alleged use of supernatural powers.
The court record itself reveals significant doubt about the truth of the “witchcraft” accusations, which are substantiated solely on the basis of statements by persons who believed they had been “bewitched,” and by “strange” objects reportedly found in the house of the accused and on a tree.

Court Verdict number 125/2 of October 10, 2006 (17/9/1427) states that Fawza Falih confessed that “I take 1,500 Riyal for each act of which I send half to the magician Abu Tal’a [who allegedly taught her “witchcraft”] according to the agreement, for Abu Tal’a said to me, ‘If you do not bring the money, by God, you will become possessed by jinn like dogs.” If any “strange” acts did indeed take place, they seem to have been the result of a money-making scam. Those who lost money have not sued to have their money returned. Fawza Falih’s alleged actions did not result in any complaints of injury or damage suffered by any party.

In addition, there were numerous procedural and legal errors throughout the course of this trial. Judges of the court appear to have both disregarded established laws and made up new law as the trial proceeded. Their first verdict sentenced Fawza Falih to death for “witchcraft” as an “offense against God” (hadd) with a prescribed punishment of death. The legal basis for this decision includes the statement that witches “are not given the opportunity to repent, because witchcraft is not eradicable by penitence.”

Following remarks on the case by the Court of Appeals of September 1, 2006 (19/12/1427) that two of the accused were sentenced to death “despite having retracted their confessions,” and that consequently “doubt shields from hadd punishments,” the judges in Quraiyat, in a new verdict of June 6, 2007 (25/5/1428), sentenced Fawza Falih to death on a “discretionary” basis, in the name of “public interest” and to “preserve the creed and the souls and property of this country.”

Aside from the spurious nature of the charges against her, during the trial, Fawza Falih attended only the first and the last of at least six sessions. Article 140 of the LCP states that, “in major crimes, the accused shall personally appear before the court.” In the first session, only one judge was present and questioned her. Article 129 of the LCP specifies that a panel of three judges must sit in cases involving death sentences, and Article 7 halts proceedings until the judges have reached the prescribed number. Furthermore, the accused was unable to challenge any of the witnesses against her: the witnesses did not testify in court, but gave written statements, and the judge kept her in the waiting room during sessions when evidence was presented. Article 163 of the LCP states that “Each of the parties may cross-examine the witnesses called by the other party and discuss its evidence.” Fawza Falih in her appeal claims not to even know some of the witnesses who claim have seen her perform acts of “witchcraft”. The denial of her legal right to cross-examine witnesses in court seriously impaired her efforts to defend herself against the charges.

The judge also prevented her son, who was acting as her officially certified legal representative, from attending any of the court sessions, violating Article 4 of the LCP which gives “Any accused person … the right to seek the assistance of a lawyer or a representative to defend him during the investigation and trial stages.” Article 140 states that the obligation to appear in person in major crimes cannot be used as a justification to exclude legal representatives from the proceedings.

Other aspects of the arrest, treatment and trial of Fawza Falih are also deeply worrying. Fawza Falih spent 35 days in detention at the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV) after her arrest on May 4, 2005 (25/3/1426). Her detention there violated a 1981 royal decree prohibiting the CPVPV from holding and interrogating suspects at their centers. She asserted in her appeal that she was beaten during her interrogation, naming one official of the governorate. Her appeal states that she lost consciousness during one beating and was treated at the hospital. She asserts that fellow female prisoners bandaged her wounds. Human Rights Watch spoke to a relative who was allowed to visit her for the first time after about 20 days in CPVPV detention, following her hospital treatment, and saw marks from beatings on her back. There would thus have been ample evidence to indicate that her confession was coerced.

The interrogators and the judges violated Fawza Falih’s rights to due process and a fair trial in other ways as well. Her family hired lawyer Abdullah al-Suhaimi, but the head of the interrogation committee refused him access to her when he asked to see her within a few days of her arrest. Article 64 of the Law of Criminal Procedure (LCP) specifies that “During the investigation, the accused shall have the right to seek the assistance of a representative or an attorney,” and Article 70 states that “The Investigator shall not, during the investigation, separate the accused from his accompanying representative or attorney.” Furthermore, Fawza Falih, who is illiterate, claims that her confession was not read to her, but that she was nonetheless forced to fingerprint it as a mark of authentication.

Your Highness, Human Rights Watch is deeply troubled by the miscarriage of justice that has occurred in the case of Fawza Falih. We urge you to halt immediately all proceedings for her execution, to void her sentence, and to instruct officials to preserve the facts of the case so that the prosecution may initiate proceedings against the members of the CPVPV and the governorate who wrongfully arrested and mistreated Fawza Falih and so that the inspector of the judiciary is able to initiate disciplinary proceedings against the judges who violated her rights under Saudi and international law.

Sincerely,

/s/

Christoph Wilcke
Researcher
Human Rights Watch

[BrotherInIslam7]

:salam2:

I have posted a video series on 'Sihr' which has been published by the Ministry of Religious Affairs in Saudi Arabia. It has all the details of their works, evidences and cure for this evil practise.

Here it is :- http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68329

Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi

[KSA_lover]

Sentencing to death is the best solution for this , Islam stated that .
If they don't want this puinishment so why they come her and behave like this ?
They came to our land so they should respect the law of it . About your question , we have Haye'a ( A religious system ) they watch them when when they have the proof they catch them . Perhaps this puineshment seems strict but first it's from Allah , second this is the best solution as I said before .

[ShahnazZ]

What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that in addition to the West's BLATANT feelings of ethnocentric superiority over others, it lacks the necessary respect and understanding of other religions and cultures based on CHOICE. If they don't believe it and don't adhere by a certain ruling or way of life, then those that do are automatically considered "backwards" and "barbaric".

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

I don't even know where to begin on this one. "Physical harm". These are people who lack the proper undertanding of Islam and do not believe that an actual human being is not the only type of entity that can cause physical harm to another individual. Islam acknowledges the existence of jinn, it acknowledges the existence of black magic. Shariah has its rulings for practitioners of black magic and Shariah is Allah's Law. So basically, these people are against Allah's Law and consider it backwards to follow it to a T. Their lack of understanding prevents them from seeing this as lawful simply because this isn't the "normal" thing to do and clearly all norms are defined by the West.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

Oh give me a break already. Seriously this is just ridiculous. Get off your high horses and understand that the world is not limited to just YOU and those like you. The argument isn't for whether or not these very individuals should be executed. Allah Alone is the Supreme Judge. But if an individual HAS been proven to be a practitioner of black magic then the ruler needs to carry out the sentence as prescribed by Shariah law. What exactly is the basis for the Human Rights Watch? This is a man-made group that is imposing its own views on human rights on others, irrespective of the fact that not everyone holds the same views. We believe that only Allah knows the best views on His Creation because, well hey, HE CREATED THEM. They don't have to believe it but they can sure as heck need to learn to respect it and focus their energy on matters that DO require more basic human rights such as the violations of human rights being carried out on Guantanamo Bay. Or is that automatically excused because it's Western based?

[AliLasVegas]

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

[ShahnazZ]

This thread is over a year old. We generally try not to revive super old threads.

Irresepective, welcome to TTI.

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

Yes, I would know.

I'm one of them after all :).

I was born into a Muslim family but still born and raised in the US.

[septithol]

Shahnazz: Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer, using western means of proof, which you claim are no better than any others. It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable. The engineer who built it has used Western means to show why this elevator will not fall, including mathematical equations, and demonstrations of identical elevators, with identical cables, operating safely while lifting heavy iron weights.

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. It is supported by a thin hemp rope. The Mullah promises you that the elevator is being carrier by Jinn, so even if the rope breaks, it will not fall.

According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that in addition to the West's BLATANT feelings of ethnocentric superiority over others, it lacks the necessary respect and understanding of other religions and cultures based on CHOICE. If they don't believe it and don't adhere by a certain ruling or way of life, then those that do are automatically considered "backwards" and "barbaric".

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

I don't even know where to begin on this one. "Physical harm". These are people who lack the proper undertanding of Islam and do not believe that an actual human being is not the only type of entity that can cause physical harm to another individual. Islam acknowledges the existence of jinn, it acknowledges the existence of black magic. Shariah has its rulings for practitioners of black magic and Shariah is Allah's Law. So basically, these people are against Allah's Law and consider it backwards to follow it to a T. Their lack of understanding prevents them from seeing this as lawful simply because this isn't the "normal" thing to do and clearly all norms are defined by the West.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

Oh give me a break already. Seriously this is just ridiculous. Get off your high horses and understand that the world is not limited to just YOU and those like you. The argument isn't for whether or not these very individuals should be executed. Allah Alone is the Supreme Judge. But if an individual HAS been proven to be a practitioner of black magic then the ruler needs to carry out the sentence as prescribed by Shariah law. What exactly is the basis for the Human Rights Watch? This is a man-made group that is imposing its own views on human rights on others, irrespective of the fact that not everyone holds the same views. We believe that only Allah knows the best views on His Creation because, well hey, HE CREATED THEM. They don't have to believe it but they can sure as heck need to learn to respect it and focus their energy on matters that DO require more basic human rights such as the violations of human rights being carried out on Guantanamo Bay. Or is that automatically excused because it's Western based?

[strive-may-i]

....Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer........

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. rope held by Jinn ........

PHEW!!!
The supposed scenario, the Elevator 2 ....


According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

And the question, ill-conceptualized, since the response is ununderstood...

[septithol]

PHEW!!!
The supposed scenario, the Elevator 2 ....


And the question, ill-conceptualized, since the response is ununderstood...

Strive, you have NOT answered the question. Which elevator do you get in?

If and only if the people in that court room would get into elevator #2, before passing judgement on that woman, then I will grant them respect for their beliefs in the Jinn. I would consider them to be mistaken, but they are HONESTLY mistaken. (I also don't think they would survive their mistake, but that's a seperate point).

If they refuse to get into elevator #2, which has had spells cast on it to supposedly make it carried by Jinn, and prefer elevator #1, they have no right to make a judgement of 'black magic' in the court room. A court room is a very important place, you are possibly judging whether someone will live or die. That being the case, you have no right to judge them by ANY system except that system which you believe in strongly enough to stake your own life, and the lives of your family, on it.

I would get into elevator #1, every time. I would never set foot in elevator #2. That being the case, if I were in court, I would not have the right to pass any judgement based on my particular religious beliefs, however strongly I might believe in them. The only system I have a right to judge others by is that which I believe in STRONGLY enough to trust with my own life, and that of my family, which in my case, is that of physical and mathematical proof.

Those who want to pass judgement by Sharia law, but who ALSO refuse to get into elevator #2, that which is held by a very thin hemp rope, but had spells cast on it to make Jinn carry it, and insist on elevator #1, that which has been proven by western methods, are hypocrites, who want one system when it comes to their own precious skins, but a different system when it comes to being able to kill people they merely happen to dislike. Such people are liars, and murderers in their hearts. I have a certain amount of respect for those who are honestly mistaken, and who would actually get into elevator #2. I have no respect for hypocrites who choose elevator #1 for themselves, but then turn around and condemn a woman to death for 'black magic'.

[sclavus]

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

Well said. May the Almighty give you strength to hold on His rope.

[ShahnazZ]

Let's see:

Shahnazz: Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer, using western means of proof, which you claim are no better than any others. It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable. The engineer who built it has used Western means to show why this elevator will not fall, including mathematical equations, and demonstrations of identical elevators, with identical cables, operating safely while lifting heavy iron weights.

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. It is supported by a thin hemp rope. The Mullah promises you that the elevator is being carrier by Jinn, so even if the rope breaks, it will not fall.

According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

The one you clearly did not bother to conjure up.

I'm sorry but this is an extremely laughable comparison. And I assure you I'm dead serious. So Elevator 1 is made "by a Western engineer using Western means of proof". "It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable." The engineer is oh so brilliant and clearly has conducted a PowerPoint presentation on why this is the elevator to end all elevators. Bravo West.

And Elevator 2 is made by a "Mullah", employed by jinn. A pimple compared to the Mighty Elevator of the West.

The end.

I'm sure you were just itching to add a camel and sand dunes in there somewhere.

You just proved my initial point.

Let me ask YOU a question, Septithol.

Can you PLEASE come up with a better scenario minus the ethnocentrism? It's blatantly obvious and your argument is more supportive of MY stance rather than yours.

This one does not warrant an actual response.

[ShahnazZ]

If and only if the people in that court room would get into elevator #2, before passing judgement on that woman, then I will grant them respect for their beliefs in the Jinn. I would consider them to be mistaken, but they are HONESTLY mistaken. (I also don't think they would survive their mistake, but that's a seperate point).

Pardon the confusion but what makes you think we need your respect to uphold our beliefs?

If they refuse to get into elevator #2, which has had spells cast on it to supposedly make it carried by Jinn, and prefer elevator #1, they have no right to make a judgement of 'black magic' in the court room. A court room is a very important place, you are possibly judging whether someone will live or die. That being the case, you have no right to judge them by ANY system except that system which you believe in strongly enough to stake your own life, and the lives of your family, on it.

Clearly you know nothing about Islam. And I said Islam. Not Muslims. Be careful when attempting to make that distinction.

No self-respecting Muslim would get into that second elevator anyway. That doesn't mean they'd get in the first. But definitely not the second.

And it's safe to say that all of us would stake our lives and those of whom we love on Islam, so please cease with the patronizing.

Those who want to pass judgement by Sharia law, but who ALSO refuse to get into elevator #2, that which is held by a very thin hemp rope, but had spells cast on it to make Jinn carry it, and insist on elevator #1, that which has been proven by western methods, are hypocrites, who want one system when it comes to their own precious skins, but a different system when it comes to being able to kill people they merely happen to dislike. Such people are liars, and murderers in their hearts. I have a certain amount of respect for those who are honestly mistaken, and who would actually get into elevator #2. I have no respect for hypocrites who choose elevator #1 for themselves, but then turn around and condemn a woman to death for 'black magic'.

Again (and I can't believe I'm entertaining this ridiculous notion), Elevator 2 isn't conforming to anyone's standards, neither Muslim nor non Muslim. Which again shows that you come from a place of sheer ignorance and zero intellect. I won't bother to spell it out for you as you clearly are not here to learn. And trust me, arguing won't get you anywhere.

How dare you call ANYONE a hypocrite when your example lacks the very clarity you claim to have? The system you stated isn't in accordance with any religion. It simply shows you have no knowledge of the very system you're fighting against.

Your posts warrant zero discussion and as a result, equate to just that.

Null and void.

You want to challenge the ideas of Muslims on this forum? Kindly come up with a better argument with actual validity based on THE TRUTH.

Your own personal creative writing is just a sheer disservice to yourself.

[septithol]

Shahnazz: Okay, I'll bite.

Can you offer me any proof of the existence of these 'Jinn' at all?

Can you show me a single photograph of one? A hair, bone, or drop of blood from one? A footprint? A videotape of one moving an object, with no other explanation, like wires? Something more subtle perhaps? A change in temperature or the amount of humidity or static electricity in the atmosphere?

You claim these Jinn can cause illness. Can you show me laboratory rats (immune to autosuggestion unlike people) becoming ill after being cursed by a Jinn?

Do you have different proof you can explain to me, other than merely a 'belief' or 'acknowledgement' of their existence?

Otherwise, this 'belief' in something with no proof at all, even if it does exist, is nothing more than a blank check to kill people you merely dislike. Without means of proof, you cannot actually prove a person guilty, and more importantly, it is also impossible for the accused to prove themselves innocent.

[ShahnazZ]

So this took awhile because I had to sit down and give it the time and consideration it deserved. I still don't think I did it justice, based on lack of time but the information is all there.

If an individual makes the time and effort to go over it that is.

Shahnazz: Okay, I'll bite.

Can you offer me any proof of the existence of these 'Jinn' at all?

Can you show me a single photograph of one? A hair, bone, or drop of blood from one? A footprint? A videotape of one moving an object, with no other explanation, like wires? Something more subtle perhaps? A change in temperature or the amount of humidity or static electricity in the atmosphere?

The existence of these beings is acknowledged in the Holy Quran and if you don't believe in that, then there's no point in even discussing this as that is the main source of knowledge for all Muslims. Your point would then go from "Jinn are not real" to "The Quran is not real." And that's a completely different discussion entirely.

If you're talking about physical evidence to support the fact that jinn exist, you would be hard-placed to find any. Do you even know what jinn are? If you did, you would realize that they lack alot of the animalistic qualities you mentioned above (i.e. hair, blood, footprints).

Based on the Quran, God states the following:

“And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.” [al-Hijr 15:27]

You can't exactly contain smoke now can you?

Also, I can't exactly show you a photograph of one because that would qualify as seeing them and humans can't see jinn. The word "jinn" itself comes from the Arabic root "janna" which means 'to conceal'. The jinn's true forms are concealed from mankind and so we can't see them walking and talking like we see each other.

However, one point to note is that although you can't see them in their true forms, it has been proven that they are capable of taking on other forms, such as those of humans and animals. This fact has been verified by the Prophet Muhammad :saw:, someone else you would be akin to believe in before believing in what he stated. Again, if you don't believe in him, then your train of though is heading elsewhere entirely.

More information on seeing jinn from Islamic sources can be found here: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/40703/Jinn.

A basic point to note is that the jinn are the only other species that God created with accountability. This means that they too will be held responsible for their deeds and questioned about them on the Day of Judgment and will also be granted Heaven or Hell like mankind.

Just like Muslims believe Adam is the father of mankind, we also believe that Iblis (Satan) is the father of the jinn. They are of him and he is of them. They inherited their physical characteristics from him. This ties into the Islamic concept of evil and belief in Satan as his existence is affirmed in the Holy Quran.

More information regarding their existence from Islamic sources can be found here: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/2340/Jinn

We've covered finding physical remains of them. You then speak of capturing them on camera and types of subtle changes. Again, capturing them on camera would require seeing them and they're pretty much out of humanity's visual range of focus. That being said, individuals all over the world have managed to capture "strange sightings" at times and call them a variety of names, some of which are "ghosts, spirits, demons, etc." These would definitely be remnant of the jinn somehow as in Islam, we do not believe in the aforementioned terms, except that it is a jinn causing mischief. Regarding changes in temperature and humidity, there are those who go "hunting" for ghosts and will bring along equipment that will detect the very changes you speak of. They sometimes do discover the changes in environment and temperature that you mentioned and attribute them to the presence of ghosts.

Again, not ghosts, but jinn.

Also to mention, if you've ever observed "demon possession", this would also be the work of jinn. The fact that jinn can enter human bodies has been proven in the Quran and Sunnah as well as observed in real life and various occurrences of "demon" possession have been documented.

More information regarding the Islamic beliefs in possession can be found here:

http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/1819/Jinn

You claim these Jinn can cause illness. Can you show me laboratory rats (immune to autosuggestion unlike people) becoming ill after being cursed by a Jinn?

I claimed no such thing. If you believe I did, kindly provide a quote.

Regarding lab rats being tested for the "curse" of jinn, that's preposterous. That suggests that jinn are experimental variables that can be used in control and experimental groups, quantified and measured, something completely farfetched.

This isn't some contagion virus found in the depths of the Amazon, available for visual scrutiny under a microscope. It's an entirely independent species of beings, who would most likely not appreciate being used as experimental guinea pigs. Nor would they volunteer as such.

Do you have different proof you can explain to me, other than merely a 'belief' or 'acknowledgement' of their existence?

Like I said, the basis for their existence comes from the Quran and Hadith. If you're intent on disbelieving in them, then there's nothing one can really say to dissuade you.

Otherwise, this 'belief' in something with no proof at all, even if it does exist, is nothing more than a blank check to kill people you merely dislike. Without means of proof, you cannot actually prove a person guilty, and more importantly, it is also impossible for the accused to prove themselves innocent.

Laughable. Really and truly.

If people insist on wearing blinders and sticking their heads in the sand, that's their problem. No one else's.

I could present you with all the proof in the world and if you're intent on hating a governing system or Shariah itself, you wouldn't be able to see any of it.

Shariah has a means of proof. It's called the Quran and Hadith. Evidence to support both have been found in reality. I've mentioned instances of them. And any argument you present me with would be countered by evidences from Islamic sources.

So I repeat yet again: Without belief in the Quran, Hadith and Prophet Muhammad :saw:, this argument is pointless. And if you question our beliefs, then believe that we have faith in what we believe to be the True Word of God. That is what these systems govern on and that is what non-Believers don't understand.

And frankly, half the time, they don't even want to.

Questioning why we can't perceive certain things will ultimately lead you to ask the question of how God can even exist because we can't physically perceive Him. If that's the case, you are on a COMPLETELY different tangent, my friend, and there is zero point in having this discussion.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Sister Shahnaz this is for you..please stop grinning.


Septithol: I will play along with you. I will take the elevator with the blessings of Allah. I will recite the Quran and remember how Allah blessed Suleiman.

I would not ride elevator one. Unless Muslim hands touched the work I would be scared. If it was not for Muslim hands the works of the ancient mathematicians would not have been translated and applied. The elevator would not have been built in the first place. Where do you get off with this Western notion. Muslims have lived in the west forever. Islam is not limited geographically. I will behave.

You see I would make dua while riding the elevator two and we all know Allah answers the prayers of Believers.

[ShahnazZ]

Sister Shahnaz this is for you..please stop grinning.

I don't get it.

[Aapa]

Salaam,

I thought you understood how I can be anti-Jinn etc. I thought you would get a kick out of me even willing to contemplate riding an elevator pulled by a jinn.

I tend to stay away from jinn stuff. I am more in the philosophical end of the spectrum.

And I catch myself writing about the possibility of riding an elevator not pulled by pulleys and levers but a jinn.

I just thought that would make you smile.

[ShahnazZ]

I just thought that would make you smile.

:salam2:,

And now it has :)

JazakAllah khair

[septithol]

If you're talking about physical evidence to support the fact that jinn exist, you would be hard-placed to find any. Do you even know what jinn are? If you did, you would realize that they lack alot of the animalistic qualities you mentioned above (i.e. hair, blood, footprints).

In other words, you have NO evidence that you can actually show for the existence of the Djinn



Based on the Quran, God states the following:

“And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.” [al-Hijr 15:27]

You can't exactly contain smoke now can you?

As a matter of fact, you can. In fact, you can contain a vacuum, or an electrical charge, both of which are far less substantial than smoke.


Also, I can't exactly show you a photograph of one because that would qualify as seeing them and humans can't see jinn. The word "jinn" itself comes from the Arabic root "janna" which means 'to conceal'. The jinn's true forms are concealed from mankind and so we can't see them walking and talking like we see each other.

Try to understand this: I could claim that there is a giant pink elephant in my back yard. When you demand proof of this, I tell you that the elephant is invisible, so you can't see it, floats in the air, so it leaves no footprints, doesn't eat or poop, so it leaves no stool, makes no sound so you can't hear it, has no body heat, so it can't be detected by infrared cameras, and is insubstantial so you can't touch it. At some point, if there is no possible proof, there is no functional difference between there being a pink elephant and there NOT being a pink elephant. It's existence or non-existence are indistinguishable, so it cannot be a factor in a court case.


However, one point to note is that although you can't see them in their true forms, it has been proven that they are capable of taking on other forms, such as those of humans and animals. This fact has been verified by the Prophet Muhammad

HOW was it verified by Muhammad? If it was verified by him, then this verification should be able to be shown to other people. Or did he simply SAY that the Djinn existed, and that he had verified them?



Just like Muslims believe Adam is the father of mankind, we also believe that Iblis (Satan) is the father of the jinn.

It is entirely possible that you do believe it, and it's entirely possible that it is true. However, what you BELIEVE, or claim that you believe, and what you can PROVE are two entirely different things. Things that you merely 'believe' have no place in a court room, however strongly you may 'believe' them, even if, in fact, they are true, unless, and until, the time, that you can actually PROVE them. Muhammed's say-so is not proof. My own say so, even if I am sure I am telling the truth, is not proof.

Understand this, if you run a court room based on just what you 'believe', even if you are sure it is true, even if it actually IS true, there is no real way to prove someone guilty, and as I said before, there is no real way for the person to prove they are not guilty.

When you run a court on that basis, what you now have is a blank check, for killing anyone you dislike. All you must do is accuse them of this 'black magic'. Since there is no proof of this black magic, there is no way for them to prove that they have not done it. It's an automatic death sentence for anyone who is disliked, regardless of whether they are guilty or not, because without proof, they cannot prove their innocence.



Again, capturing them on camera would require seeing them and they're pretty much out of humanity's visual range of focus. That being said, individuals all over the world have managed to capture "strange sightings" at times and call them a variety of names, some of which are "ghosts, spirits, demons, etc." These would definitely be remnant of the jinn somehow as in Islam, we do not believe in the aforementioned terms, except that it is a jinn causing mischief. Regarding changes in temperature and humidity, there are those who go "hunting" for ghosts and will bring along equipment that will detect the very changes you speak of. They sometimes do discover the changes in environment and temperature that you mentioned and attribute them to the presence of ghosts. .

I happen to believe in a variety of spirits myself. However, I cannot *PROVE* them. The only things that belong in a court room are those which can be proven or disproven somehow. Case in point: I was given a dream once by my own patron diety in which I was given information which proved to be accurate, when I looked it up at the library. I know this to be true, I know what I dreamed, and that I had not known this before. BUT - I have no way of proving this. I cannot open my skull and take out my dream and show it to people. Nor can I prove that I did not know this information before my dream. In fact, it's possible I am mistaken, maybe I did know it before and forgot about it! At any rate, since it is something I cannot prove, regardless of how strongly I believe in it and know it to be true, I have no right to bring it into a court room.



Regarding lab rats being tested for the "curse" of jinn, that's preposterous. That suggests that jinn are experimental variables that can be used in control and experimental groups, quantified and measured, something completely farfetched.

Yet the basis of the charge of 'black magic' in Saudi courts, is that the Jinn CAN be controlled, and used to do things like cause illness in people. It seems a little bit 'convenient', shall we say, that these Jinn can supposedly be deliberately controlled by certain people to do black magics, and you now have a nice justification for killing people you dislike, yet they suddenly are unable to be controlled, when I ask you to duplicate this effect of black magic in a laboratory for me.

This is, I imagine, why Westerners regard their methods in court as superior. We can, at least, consistently SHOW the proof of what happened. If a court here says that somebody died of poison, we can show you a test that detects the poison in their body, we can show that the same test will be able to accurately detect the same poison in test animals we fed the poison to. We can show you the same poison and the same test results 50 or 100 or 1000 times, we do not claim that we strongly 'believe' someone was killed with poison, but then the poison suddenly mysteriously vanished from their body, leaving no trace at all, even under a microscope, or won't kill animals in a laboratory, or that there is otherwise no 'proof' but our 'beliefs'.

Without proof, only beliefs, you do not have a court of law, you have a lynch mob killing a scapegoat.


It's an entirely independent species of beings, who would most likely not appreciate being used as experimental guinea pigs. Nor would they volunteer as such.

Again, very convenient, an excuse for no proof.



Like I said, the basis for their existence comes from the Quran and Hadith. If you're intent on disbelieving in them, then there's nothing one can really say to dissuade you.

My belief in the Quran is irrelevent. Writing about a creature in a book is not proof that it exists, with no other evidence. Mind you, the fact that there is no other evidence doesn't mean that it DOESN'T exist, either. But you can't bring it into a court room until you have more evidence than just a mention in a book.


Shariah has a means of proof. It's called the Quran and Hadith. Evidence to support both have been found in reality. I've mentioned instances of them. And any argument you present me with would be countered by evidences from Islamic sources.

A book, in and of itself, cannot be proof, even if it is true. Let me give you an example: The ancient Aztecs believed that the sun would go out, unless numerous people were sacrificed on top of an altar by having their hearts cut out of their bodies. Suppose someone were to start killing people in this fashion, and offer as justification for their actions, an ancient Aztec manuscript, and claim that the fact that this manuscript said that the sun would go out if such sacrifices were not performed was 'proof' that they were right in killing these people.

Would you be very sympathetic? Especially if they said that there was no other proof than the Aztec manuscripts, like problems with the sun being seen with a telescope, because the sun knew when telescopes were pointed at it, and only had the problems when no telescopes were watching?

Well, it's possible. But highly unlikely. Far more likely, than magical Aztec dieties making the sun go out, but working their mischeif only when no telescopes are looking at the sun, is that the person is evil or insane, and wants an excuse to kill people.


And if you question our beliefs, then believe that we have faith in what we believe to be the True Word of God. That is what these systems govern on and that is what non-Believers don't understand. [QUOTE]

I believe that you have faith, and it's probably right in it's own way. It's probably stronger than my own particular faith. However, neither your faith, nor my faith, has a place in a court room, without proof. I am not saying that you absolutely cannot bring Jinn into a court room, simply because they are an Islamic concept, and everything Islamic is bad. I am saying that you must have proof of these Jinn that you can actually show, not just 'belief' or a writing in a book, however much you might regard the book, before you can bring them into a court room.

I should point out, that there are western beliefs that should not be brought into a court room, for the same reason, such as the belief in angels, leprechauns, and goblins.

[QUOTE=ShahnazZ;524187]
Questioning why we can't perceive certain things will ultimately lead you to ask the question of how God can even exist because we can't physically perceive Him. If that's the case, you are on a COMPLETELY different tangent, my friend, and there is zero point in having this discussion.

Actually, I have my own ideas as to how God can exist without having physical form (as we know it). But they are incredibly complex, somewhat mathematical in nature, and it would take much too long to explain it in this post. If you want to hear about them, you can PM me and I will TRY to explain them to you. I expect proof of my ideas (or disproof of them) to be found eventually. However, until such time as there is proof, my ideas, even if they are right, have no place in a court room. And I should also point out, that should everyone in the world who has the same ideas as I do merely sit around arrogantly saying 'we KNOW we are right, we believe it, and need no proof', there is never going to be any proof.

Let me tell you something I read in a book once, this was fiction, but incidents like this may well have happened.

There was a man in the book, which was set in Poland in the year 1231. The entire left half of his body was paralysed, he could not move that half his body, or feel anything. The people in the book were certain that this was caused by black magic.

No... it was caused by a stroke. But they didn't know what a stroke was in the year 1231.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

You know what I love about life. I have to wash the dinner dishes. It is a must. So what am I doing right now...that is one of the things I love about life.

Dear sweet Septithol...1231 the Europeans were stupid. Do a comparative history chart. They were counting the number of angels one could get on a pinhead. Please. I know you do not want me to go start with the Catholic church and all the craziness there. Women were drowned for being witches.

Come on now..we still have exorcisms to this day. Warlock possess girls.
The whole sleeping beauty thing.

Please stop with the Western thing. It is really beginning to irritate me. Islam is not alien to the West. You are stuck on the European model of the scientific method. It is that simple.

OK...the court system. It is based on Jewish and Christian law. If you read the scripture it is laden with things that go bump in the night. Western law is based on precedence. If it happened before it can be real. You have the death sentence. But you only execute the poor. The rich get away with everything. You buy yourself out of the crime. If you are rich you buy the best lawyer. What does law have to do with it.

I really am going to start reading your posts word for word and am going to have to break them down. Unglue you.

Your courts start with the word of God.

I am being kind to you. Do not mock my faith. Do not mock the faith of my sisters. I am not playing. You think it is amusing to write on this website. You think the little logic you were given is superior to our faith.

Wake up. I am getting serious now. Please refrain from mocking my faith. I am a believing woman and Allah subhana talla answers my prayers.

You want to play games please go buy a playstation. But do not play games with believers. Do not play with our faith.

InshaAllah, from this moment on I will deconstruct each word you write, each thought you express, and promptly humble you. I have had enough for people playing with my faith. No more. I am sorry you have to be the one I start with..but someone had to be.

Sister Shahnaz forgive me.

[septithol]

Perhaps it will be easier for some of the people here to learn from a very tragic mistake made in the past by Christians.

Hundreds of years ago, there were certain women in Europe who the other people were certain, absolutely certain, were doing black magic. These women, were, so the other people thought, doing black magic and selling their own babies to the devil, so that the babies would be born dead, or dying, and die a few days later. And they knew for sure this was what was happening, because they had books telling them that this was how black magic worked.

Except... they were wrong. We now know today what was wrong with these women's children dying. These women had a rare blood type, called 'RH negative'. If a woman with this blood type marries a man who has 'RH positive' blood, her own blood will often attack they baby when it is still inside her. This is not something she can control, it is not her fault. These women should have been pitied, not put to death for black magic.

I should mention, that there are now shots a woman with RH negative blood can take, to keep her children from dying. But these shots would never have been made, if people kept insisting forever that the children were dying because of 'black magic' simply because they did not understand why the children were dying, instead of using their minds, and trying to LEARN and UNDERSTAND why they were dying.

The fact is, people get sick and people die, and we do not always know the reason why. Could they die from black magic? Yes. But there are other reasons besides black magic for people to die, that we might not understand.

Suppose a man dies, and I think his wife has cast black magic on him to make him die, because they argued the previous day, and the doctors cannot find a reason why he died. I have no proof that his wife cast black magic, but I believe that she did, simply because nobody has any other reason why the man died.

But what if I am wrong? What if the man died of some rare problem with his nerves, that nobody has discovered yet? If I kill his wife, then I am a murderer, I killed her with no proof, because there is not, as of yet, any proof for black magic.

And I tell you this as well: Even if I am right, even if his wife did do black magic, and deserved to die. Even if that is the case, with no real proof, no way to be truly certain, no real way to show black magic, rather than some rare other cause, then I am still a murderer in my own heart. I may be told after I die, that the woman did do black magic, but it is the same as if I decided to kill a man because I thought he was ugly, or quarreled with him, then found out only AFTER I had killed him that he was a murderer with bodies in his basement. I did not know he was a murderer, I had no proof of it, WHEN I killed him. Whatever I learn about him afterwards, at the time I killed him, I was a murderer in my heart.

I would much rather explain to my God, that I let free someone who was doing black magic, because I could not be certain of it, and will not kill someone without being certain, then to explain to my God that I kill people without being certain, and am a murderer in my heart.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Your major error in thought: your God. Sorry...Allah subhana watala is the Only God.

We can not divide Him. He is not my God and not your God. He is the Creator of the Words and that includes us.

( you seem to think that "magic" is a thing of the past because you have decided in your mind that it is not present..what proof do you have that it does not exist. You do not. You are only speaking from a limited set of experiences, yours. That is ludicrous. You are one human being out of billions. You can not speak about the experiences of humanity at any given point in time. Our knowledge base is limited.)

[ShahnazZ]

Okay.

I'm actually kicking myself because I didn't see this before.

Let's fight fire with fire.

I was so blinded with refuting the arguments that were presented to me that I didn't see what was right in front of me and thus, the only viable conclusion in this ridiculous debate. I see that Aapa is thinking along similar lines.

Septithol.

Oh Septithol.

You demand proof for the existence of black magic and jinn and at the same time you worship a so-called deity of death.

The answer is right in front of you and the fact that it's so obvious is ludicrous.

You're refuting the concept of jinn when in actuality you're WORSHIPPING one.

See, the jinn that do Satan's bidding try to mislead humanity in various ways. The biggest accomplishment for them is getting us to commit the one unforgiveable sin in existence:

Shirk. Association with the One True God. Belief in a diety other than Him.

You have dreams in which this something came to you with accurate information and you immediately started worshipping it (which by the way is SUPER smart). That's actually a ploy by Shaytan to induce polytheism. In fact, it's how idol worship began.

The devil and his minions (aka Iblis and his jinn followers) can take the shape of anything and can appear in your dreams as anything. They are infamous for mixing truth with falsehood. In your case, simply providing some true facts so they could impress you enough to devote your entire being to them. Seems they didn't have to try very hard and that should tell you something about yourself.

Honey, they're probably having a field day with you.

There is no deity of death. There is simply you and your delusion.

You play dirty by insulting Muslims and criticizing Islam and Shariah. I can play right back. Tell me all about this jinn that is deluding you into believing it is one of many gods. Tell me how it managed to take a critically thinking human being and bring her over to the dark side. Tell me how it then got her to believe she actually has the right to be self-righteous when she has dedicated herself to worshipping a sci-fi freakshow.

And then present your ridiculous assessment about how Muslims are the delusional, crazy, archaic ones once again.

You wouldn't float on water for five seconds.

It's interesting that you call us hypocrites for exacting punishment without the type of proof YOU deem fit, and all this time you're literally worshipping something straight out of the Twilight Zone.

At least we have references to Divine Guidance and are simple drops in an ocean of Believers who believe and have faith in the same Message that we do.

Who do you have but you and yourself? And YOUR brainpower outweighs that of millions of individuals around the world, including scholars and scientists?

Mathematical methods of thinking you say you have. Show me the mathematical equation for your god and his existence. Let's see YOUR proofs for the method of your madness.

Pot, meet kettle. You don't get to tell us what's what when you yourself have no leg to stand on.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

That's right sister.

She is deluded. She thinks she can come here and cause confusion. Back off baby. Back off.

You are just beginning to see the power of Muslim sisterhood. You insult my sisters. You insult my brothers. No more.

You had the nerve to call me immoral. Think again.

You do not come into my backyard. This is my territory. And it protected. I Believe as do my sisters. Let me put it in simple terms. I got my sisters and me...

Time to leave. Exit. Adios. Goodbye. Game over.

[septithol]

Shahnazz, this thread is getting angry, so I am instead going to PM my response to you, rather than make it angrier.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

There is no anger on my part. I am just having a little girlish fun. As I wrote earlier do not mock my faith.

And you are retreating.

[ShahnazZ]

Septithol, you need to post the PM you just sent to me in this discussion thread for everyone else to see.

The sick things you say to me about the Quran itself being the work of evil spirits needs to be discussed with everyone and not in a PM where you can hide behind the rouse of being considerate of everyone else while secretly slandering Shariah behind their backs.

Either you post it or I will.

[Tabassum07]

:salam2:

I'm trying to figure out what Septithol's trying to point out in this entire thread, and in fact, all of her posts on the forum. What does she want to gain by regularly visiting "Turn to Islam"?

[esperanza]

:salam2:

I'm trying to figure out what Septithol's trying to point out in this entire thread, and in fact, all of her posts on the forum. What does she want to gain by regularly visiting "Turn to Islam"?

yes iagree if she is arguing with people at every turn???why is she here

[septithol]

Septithol, you need to post the PM you just sent to me in this discussion thread for everyone else to see.

The sick things you say to me about the Quran itself being the work of evil spirits needs to be discussed with everyone and not in a PM where you can hide behind the rouse of being considerate of everyone else while secretly slandering Shariah behind their backs.

Either you post it or I will.

I think it's extremely rude to post private messages, but if you feel the need to do so, then at least have the honesty to post it in it's entirety, not pick and choose just parts of it to post. And I didn't get to send you all of it anyways, your mailbox is full.

[ShahnazZ]

I gave you the opportunity to post your own private message first, that's all. I have no problem doing it myself. I've actually never done this before but you've crossed the line with this false facade of yours. Do NOT try to intimidate me in private just because you're too scared to post your miserable thoughts in public. Like you've done all along.

You're bold enough to come out and accuse Muslims of being murderers on a public forum. At least continue your ridicule in public. Hiding behind PMs under the guise of not wanting "to make a thread angrier" just shows how fake you are when you had no problem doing so in the first place. At least be consistent with your methods.

And it's fascinating how it's "rude" to post private messages when the very content of your PM was rude and inflammatory.

Such blatant hypocrisy.

Oh well.

Blatantly rude and inflammatory PM coming up in next post. Do be kind enough to post the second half as well since I only have the first.

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Why respond Shanhaz.

Our purpose it to gain knowledge and share love.

For those who are not Muslim and want to learn we do so with open arms.

I think it is funny. She used the word angry. There was no anger in our posts. This is to incite us to an emotional level and leave our senses behind. When we become emotional we allow our lower selves to surface.

Guard your worship. Let us use the words from our faith to combat this nonsense.

Shahnaz, please delete the PM. We have far better things to discuss. I would rather discuss why witchcraft is flourishing in Saudi Arabia today. What are the socio-economic conditions that are enabling the perpetuation of witchcraft. I want to get a handle on the current issues.

[your-sister]

Assalaamu 'alaikum.

Guys, it is quite clear that the sister(Septithol) is in need of guidance... So pray for her please- rather than letting her mere words get to you. In the end, no matter what the disbeliever say, *we* know that, With Him who Created us, Islaam is the only Deen! Alhamdulillaah. And there's nothing they(the disbelievers) can say or do that will change that. If they're not going to agree with our Shari'ah laws, then so be it. No one is need of their approval anyways.

Sihr(witchcraft) is a sure thing...we have many saahirs working with shayaateens even to this day. That's a fact. You can choose to accept it or not.
Jinns exist. They're part of the ghayb(unseen). And that's another fact. Again, one can choose to accept it or not. Your choice will be questioned though, not by us ordinary people..but Allaah 'azza wa Jall.

[ShahnazZ]

This actually rings true. I shouldn't be fanning the flames when clearly they've already been fanned by someone who's claiming a lack of desire in wanting to fan them.

And I happen to be fasting.

I'm not going to make this thread uglier, Septithol. You managed to do that yourself.

You're not here to learn. You're here to point fingers and tell us what horrible human beings we are for adhering to our code of justice when you have zero right to do so in the first place.

I'll cease from posting your disgusting words only because unlike your faith, mine actually teaches me etiquette about how to deal justly with others. Yes, I said justly. I actually don't feel right about posting someone's PM on a public thread even though they deserve to have everyone else be witness to their hypocrisy. This is an Islamic forum and you have no right to bash Islam the way you have done. You don't deserve any courtesy and irrespective, I feel inclined to give you some.

Your sickness dies with me. I'd advise against posting anything like what you wrote to me in any other thread on this forum.

If you're looking to preserve whatever respect you have left, that is.

[kashif_nazeer]

:salam2:

Sihr(black magic) does exist and so does ayn(evil eye).That is why Allah revealed mu'awidhatayn al falaq and an nas for protection.Two angels Harut and Marut descended in Babil,they were sent as a test and taught magic to people but warned them that we are sent as a test so do not do kufr by learning sihr.This are used by people due to their ego and jealousy to hurt other.May Allah guide them and rescue everyone who is affected by them.Ameen.

[Tabassum07]

This actually rings true. I shouldn't be fanning the flames when clearly they've already been fanned by someone who's claiming a lack of desire in wanting to fan them.

And I happen to be fasting.

I'm not going to make this thread uglier, Septithol. You managed to do that yourself.

You're not here to learn. You're here to point fingers and tell us what horrible human beings we are for adhering to our code of justice when you have zero right to do so in the first place.

I'll cease from posting your disgusting words only because unlike your faith, mine actually teaches me etiquette about how to deal justly with others. Yes, I said justly. I actually don't feel right about posting someone's PM on a public thread even though they deserve to have everyone else be witness to their hypocrisy. This is an Islamic forum and you have no right to bash Islam the way you have done. You don't deserve any courtesy and irrespective, I feel inclined to give you some.

Your sickness dies with me. I'd advise against posting anything like what you wrote to me in any other thread on this forum.

If you're looking to preserve whatever respect you have left, that is.

:salam2:

I commend you, dear sister, for your totally righteous conduct according to Islam. We turn away evil with what is good. If someone argues with us, and we *know* there's no hope they'll listen to us (as is the case here), we just turn away and ignore them, praying that they'll see the light someday.

I think we should just refrain from replying to any insidious posts. I also think Septithol should probably try looking for a mathematics or a statistics forum, as she seems to worship those more than anything else.