The true enemies against Islam and Muslims [Archive] - TTI

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christina

11-18-2006, 05:23 PM

Hallo!

I think, today the true enemies against Islam (!) and against decent peace-loving Muslims (!) are radical extreme muslim terrorists.
Not the USA, neither Israel, neither any paranoic conspiracy theory that mixes it all up.

Watch these two videos:
(Please be aware: they’re talking about extremists only, they also say it in the video several times)

Topics in this forum like „ISRAEL is the biggest terrorist organization in the world (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3759)“ or „Evil at work (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3826)“ are deepening hate and misunderstanding. There are almost no voices here that speak out against it. This suprises – and worries - me a lot. I don’t think that this is the path to peace and understanding.

Kind regards to all, Christina

Mabsoot

11-18-2006, 09:07 PM

Hello, thanks for bringing this up, part of our purpose at this website is to bring light to the misconceptions that people have about the Muslim World.

Today, the world really does need to work together towards peace and understanding. However, the videos you present do not do anything of the kind. They miss a great deal from what is happening in the world. They feed on people's ignorance of the grave and disastrous human rights abuses occuring around the world.

I hope that you will look through all the links presented in this post in order to understand our position. The links and sources to the problems are not biased. They are only presented from human rights organisations.

Look Here for the Real Terrorism> (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2368)

There is no Paranoic Conspiracy theories. Those who say such things are covering up the worst acts of violence, murder, torture, rape and human rights abuse. All we want is to people to live independently and free and not be persecuted. To have their rights. Infact, anyone with a concious and a kind heart can see through the facade presented by those who deny people their right to live. This includes Jews themselves, and some have even set up human rights organisations to counter the Israeli State Terrorism. So, you can have a look for yourself on Jewish run, Btselem (http://www.btselem.org/english/Video/)

Lets not mix our facts up with silly propogandist videos which cover up acts of murder and genocide. For that is what those videos do. They belittle the people who are dying due to State terrorism.

Whilst i do not agree with what the people say in those videos, for they are definitely extremists, this does not mean the actual situation on the ground has nothing to do with Israel and its backers such as the USA.

Israel is a Racist apartheid state that has ethnically cleansed its way to create their Jewish only state. It persecutes innocent men, women and children on a daily basis and has no concern for international law or human rights.

It is not suprising considering this that there will be people who express extremist views and who do not understand the true Islamic way of dealing with oppression.

Imagine if your country was denied independence, that you lived in constant fear, that all the men in your family were taken away and you were never given any information where they went. That years later their tortured bodies are dumped naked outside your home. Now imagine if this happened to every Muslim family in your town. - This is what has happened and continues to happen in Chechnya. And in many cases people are never seen again. Young Boys, old men, fathers, brothers, husbands and as well as men, women are taken away too and raped. Children as young as 5 have been raped by soldiers. Infact, every human rights organisation will tell you as a fact that Rape is used as a weapon by Non-Muslims against Muslims in certain countries.

This is the reality for hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are denied a voice and further denied any means of defending themselves against such animals.

The Sad and sick reality is that we can only find out about these things from human rights websites and by actually speaking to people from those regions. The truth is hidden because those perpetrating the crimes are either our own people or our allies. For Example, Israel and Russia.

You can read the full independent HRW Human Rights Watch report on FORCED DISAPPEARANCES, TORTURE, AND SUMMARY EXECUTIONS (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chechnya/)

Russian Soldiers Rape and torture Muslim Children in Chernokozovo "filtration camp" (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR460192000?open&of=ENG-2U4)

" "Musa" witnessed a 14-year-old girl being raped by a dozen prison guards in the corridor outside the cells in which he and other detainees were held. The girl had come to visit her detained mother and for the price of 5,000 Rubles she was permitted a five-minute meeting. Her five-minute meeting became a four-day ordeal during which she was locked in a cell, beaten and repeatedly raped by guards.

"Musa" also told Amnesty International about a 16-year-old boy called Albert, originally from the village of Davydenko, who was brought to his cell after being gang-raped and severely beaten by prison guards. One of his ears had been cut off and the guards referred to him by the female name of "Maria". "Musa" believes that up to 10 men were raped in the camp during his 21-day detention.

"Musa" shared a cell for one week with Andrey Babitsky, the Radio Liberty journalist. Among his other cell mates during his 21-day detention, were a man whose hands had been severely burnt by prison guards with cigarette lighters and a 17-year-old youth whose teeth had been sawn off with a metal file and whose lips were shredded, leaving him unable to eat, drink or speak. "Musa" estimated that 10-15 new detainees were brought to the camp each day. Among those he saw were 13-14 year-old girls."

Read the following about the day to day violence Muslims face in Chechnya:
Amnesty International: Russian Federation: Continuing torture and rape in Chechnya (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR460362000?open&of=ENG-RUS)

This is not sensationalism or untrue, every single incident can be researched and proven from non-partisan neutral human rights sources, namely Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, even the Jewish Israeli run Btselam can not deny the abuses that occur against Palestinians.

Those videos you post and watch are not accurate representation of what is happening in the Middle East. It is simply twisting reality.

And it disgusts me greatly, when these videos are shown and the Victims, who are the Muslims are seen as protesting and being angry at nothing.

Firstly, you show videos that are made by the propogandists, Memri TV. Memri is a Jewish Zionist RACIST organisation. The founders were part of the Israeli military. How can this be seen as Understanding and the way to peace??

Mishy mushy peace from the mouths of War Criminals and their sympathisers is nonsense. If you knew the Real terrorism that whole families have been through due to continuous American State Terrorism and Israeli genocide you would understand why some people have so much anger, and why people become extremist.

Nobody in their right mind can justify extremism. Islam is totally against any forms of extremism or terrorism. The Killing of any civillian is totally unjustified.

We are living in a time, where the real terrorists, those who kill in the 100,000s are allowed to be seen as civillised and Kind men who follow Christian values. i.e. George Bush and Tony Blair. Yet, in reality they are nothing as such.

Apart from them, there are horrendous human rights abuses that are occuring EVERY Single Day which are never covered by our Media. There are 100s of muslim mothers still awaiting news about their missing sons and daughters. Why dont you care about them?

Why doesnt it suprise you that you never hear about them?

You are suprised by the propoganda you have just watched because you have absolutely no idea about what is happening in the world.

My advice to you is to at least seek information from unbiased sources, take a look at the human rights abuses carried out by the Enemies of Islam in Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine and Iraq. The mass murder, kidnappings and rape which is never shown to you. Its not shown because it is done by our countries and our allies.

Are these people Conspiracy theorists?

Why Angry Protests? Islam Does Not Condone Violence and Calls for Patience! (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2368)

Portraits of disappeared in Chechnya (http://www.hrw.org/photos/2002/chechnya/index.htm)

Chechnya: Rape and torture of children in Chernokozovo "filtration camp" (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engEUR460192000)

Abdul-Raheem

11-18-2006, 09:32 PM

All of this is so clear yet the international community doesn't seem to notice or care

christina

11-18-2006, 11:46 PM

My thread has been changed by an administrator, two video links have been removed.

"Anti-Muslim Propoganda videos removed, belittling reality of various conflicts"

"Obsession" is an Anti-Terror-Video, not Anti-Muslim Video.

What is really scary is your censorship! Deleting Anti-Terror-Video but not deleting Anti-Israel-Hate Thread .... hard to believe for me. That's scary! Very!

OmarTheFrench

11-18-2006, 11:48 PM

OmarTheFrench

11-18-2006, 11:51 PM

Obsession is anti-Muslim propaganda hidden behind other words.

christina

11-19-2006, 12:20 AM

Obsession is anti-Muslim propaganda hidden behind other words.

Behind what words?

In my eyes terrorists are anti-Muslim, not the videos against terrorists.

Mabsoot

11-19-2006, 12:36 AM

My thread has been changed by an administrator, two video links have been removed.

"Obsession" is an Anti-Terror-Video, not Anti-Muslim Video.

What is really scary is your censorship! Deleting Anti-Terror-Video but not deleting Anti-Israel-Hate Thread .... hard to believe for me. That's scary! Very!

Hi,

It is a video made by Zionists and people who hate Muslims. I explained they used selective footage from an organisation called Memri. Memri like to mistranslate and show Muslims in wrong light. Why should we allow such videos? This website is to show the Truth of Islam, not broadcast rubbish.

Terrorism is wrong but so too are the causes of terrorism. Infact, the causes of terrorism contain a much greater magnitude of oppression and suffering which are just not addressed.

It is for this reason i say it is an anti-Muslim video. They say that people are blind by hatred in Middle East, that the terrorism comes about out of nowhere. They are stating that the real Big State Terrorists have nothing to do with the various troubles in the world. This is incorrect and is basically covering up the deaths and persecution of 100,000s of people.

And i feel you did not care to look at any of the links that i forwarded which showed this..

I find when people start confusing legitimate critisism of Israel as Anti-semitism. It is not anti-semitic, the Arabs are semites too, yet their kids get a bullet through their heads.

There is nothing racist in those links. We would delete any thread or post which said anything abusive against Jews or Christians, because it is not allowed in Islam.

Considering the fact that the Israeli army shot a small 13 year old girl around 17 times i would say they were evil, yes.

OmarTheFrench

11-19-2006, 12:43 AM

The groups like IRA which aren't Muslims,doesn't begun armed action for the pleasure but because of the oppression that they lived in position of catholic minority.

OmarTheFrench

11-19-2006, 12:52 AM

Behind what words?

In my eyes terrorists are anti-Muslim, not the videos against terrorists.

When they take Nonie Darwish to talk about this subject... :rolleyes:

After this movie talk about the extremism and doesn't talk about the TRUE CAUSE,like if the extremism exist because of an jealousy of the Occident.To recruit groups like Al Qaeda don't use the argument of "Obsession of the West" but the problems in Chechen,Palestine,Irak,ect.

dna1987

11-19-2006, 10:26 AM

To christina, how is Obsession not an anti-muslim video? Go look at the producers of the film please and tell me where they are from. Aight? I actually watched 30 minutes of it, ignoring the 28 minutes of BS from the "non-muslim experts on muslims", it's pure propaganda and clips taken out of context (only parts shown). A non-muslim, atheist friend of mine couldn't take more than 10 minutes of it without closing it; his comment - "garbage propaganda, I'm not going to waste my time".

You've already given me blown up, pro-Israeli and definitely false figures regarding the Israeli population.. I really think you should re-look at your sources. They have all been not just pro-Israeli, but filled with lies and made up facts. You were posting information from Daniel Pipes before; come on.

You somehow managed to, or thought you did at the very least, convince yourself that a practicing Jewish rabbi is anti-Jewish.. (:confused: um...ok...).

Maybe you're under the illusion that being against Israel and Zionism is the same as being against Jews.... well that's wrong!!. Lol. More and more members within their own community are against Zionism (there is a thread at this website linking to videos on an Israeli Human Rights group website ... I'm not sure how, but perhaps you will be able to find a source - Pipes perhaps - that suggests groups such as Amnestry International, the Red Cross are anti-semetic for putting out the facts, then just incase, a big "LOL" from me in advance to any such link or article, the crap in some of those articles always make for a good laugh).

The same atheist friend of mine from above also hates Nazis, does that mean he is "anti-white"? (umm...)

What's that? You say that the Nazis do not represent all white people? Hmmm, ok well I hope this makes sense - Israel and worldwide Zionists do not represent all Jews.

but not deleting Anti-Israel-Hate Thread .... hard to believe for me. That's scary! Very!

What thread are you referring to? The one that says "which is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons?" .. "Israel".

Is that not the truth? What part of that thread do you have a problem with? Which fact do you believe is false?

If the truth and the facts (and Human Rights groups) are "anti-Israeli", then there is a problem with what Israel is doing, and it's no surprise why so many see Israel as a terrorist nation.

Abdul-Raheem

11-20-2006, 10:54 AM

:salam2:

I find it hard to believe why people are so sensitive that when it comes to the critisism of jews they conclude that it is anti-semitism. If only people were more aware of the plight of innocent muslims and stopped trying to justify the actions of terrorist states.

Serafeddin

11-20-2006, 01:29 PM

:salam2: Christina? can you please explain exactly what you mean by and describe what and who is a peace loving muslim? Do Muslims have any right in your eyes to speak out against any injustice anywhere in the world. Do you think it is ok for Israeli terrorist soldiers to kill palestinian woman in the streets because they did not want a mosque or a home to be destroyed? And have pictures of their dead bodies lying in the streets published in "major" newspapers and not hear a word, a peep from anyone is ok? So, in order for them to be peace loving, should they just pick up an leave when they see the bulldozers coming to destroy their homes and Mosques? Would that be "peace loving" enough for you? We should all be asamed of ourselves as "HUMAN BEINGS" Muslims or Not. And yes they are EVIL. Will you be ok with Israel or USA using nuclear weapons against Syria and/or Iran in the future?

If you really turly want peace, speak out against the aggression and crimes being commited against innocent people, and look around the globe and you will see who is commiting the crimes and who is at the receving end of it.

I don't hate anyone nor am I spewing hatred, but I am tired of people justifying their own hatred, bigotry, religious teachings, crimes as a result of it, behind a so called "Extremist Muslims" propaganda. I hear comments on CNN such as "We have to kill them, all of them if we want to be safe". Who is all and where does it end?

Peace

Ayep

11-20-2006, 05:50 PM

:salam2:

Dear Christina,
If we take religion aside in the matter of the Middle East, we see one small nation called Israel among many other Middle Eastern neighbours around it. Does it make sense that you see that everyone else around is the guilty party and that one small nation of Israel is right all the time.

You are saying that everyone else is the rotten apple and have to condone to wishes of that one small nation of Israel. Where is the fairness and the justice there? Probably in your eyes that is fair.

Those who do not accept them are called extremists and terrorists. I see and hear that too often. Pretty sick and tired of it already.

We Muslims do not support acts aggression of any kind, period. Those who do it, we condem.

Please don't base ur research on biased and one sided sources.

christina

11-20-2006, 11:26 PM

Hallo to all!

Thank you for your answers.

Here are my statements (I had to split it because it was too long for the character limitation)

@ Mabsoot

Israel is a Racist apartheid state that has ethnically cleansed its way to create their Jewish only state. It persecutes innocent men, women and children on a daily basis and has no concern for international law or human rights.
If you only read anti-zionist jew-hating propagande history books, this certainly is the result of your view. Why not reading also more balanced books or take books from Israel-defending authors to know about both sides.

Btw: have you ever visited Israel? I mean, do you know the country, have you been there?
I did. It’s a great country with good and decent people. I really liked it very much. Nevertheless I want you to know: I’ve not been to Palestinian areas and I do think that they suffer a lot and that innocent people are beeing killed frequently. I do think that the situation is very bad for innocent Palestinian people. But I do also know, that Hamas and other organisations have to stop the terror, then Israel will stop trying to stop the terrorists. Because that’s what they do. If Hamas terrorists hide in civilian areas and shoot Qassam rockets from there they are a danger for the civilians because Israel has to defend and protect its own population of course from this.

All we want is to people to live independently and free and not be persecuted. To have their rights.

I agree. It is their right. But it’s also the right of the Israelis.

And i feel you did not care to look at any of the links that i forwarded which showed this.

You’re right, I didn’t check the links so far but I will. It’s because I had not enough time. I’ll take time and check it all with full attention *promised*

There is nothing racist in those links. We would delete any thread or post which said anything abusive against Jews or Christians, because it is not allowed in Islam.

Sure there is. Would you agree if someone would claim „Muslim Umma is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world!“ You would call it racists and I would absolutely agree with you on that.

@ Omar The French

Bonjour à Paris! Ca fait longtemps que j`étais à Paris mais j’aimait Paris très très bien!

Its easy to say that "radical extreme muslim terrorists"is guility of your disaster but the chechens weren't extremist,the Bosnian too,the Palestinians too.

This is mixing it all up I think ... I didn’t talk about Bosnia and Chechenia ... the film „Obsession“ is about the islamic extremists terrorism threat to America, Israel and the rest of the west that in my opinion is also the biggest threat to the Muslims (and not the US that is fighting against this threat) – why is it the biggest threat to the Muslims? Because it makes people in the world angry and suspicious about Islam and Muslim people in general and that is very bad. It causes Israel to bomb Palestinian houses, USA to invade Iraq and so on.

You don't understand that the radicalism is a consequence of the opression not the cause

I don’t believe it is. Muhammed Atta, one of the 9/11 WTC pilots was from Egypt and studied in Germany, in Hamburg. He was well-educated and had a wealthy familiy. That’s only an example. Even if you tell someone that there is a lot of injustice in the world, one is free to decide wether he will kill innocent decent people or not.

When they take Nonie Darwish to talk about this subject...

What is bad about Nonie Darwish? I just googled to find some information about her ... and I found something I wanted to ask here in this forum anyway!! I found a website called „Arabs for Israel“! I anyway wanted to ask if this forum section („News and current affairs“) here is represantative for all Muslims or if there are also Muslims who practice their face (believers) and still support USA and argue for Israel’s right to exist and defend itself and if there are websites I could check. If you know more, please tell me. I didn’t read this one so far so I still don’t know about Mrs. Darwish. I’ll check it out and I will see. Maybe she has some more links, too.

After this movie talk about the extremism and doesn't talk about the TRUE CAUSE

Well, what is the true cause? You say it is opression. But what is e.g. Mr. Bin Laden thinking? As a religious extremist he himself might simply think that he’s one of the deepest believers and best practicing Muslims of the world? So in his eyes it’s the fundamental and extreme interpretation of „fighting the non-believers“?

christina

11-20-2006, 11:29 PM

@ dna1987

Go look at the producers of the film please and tell me where they are from

You’re not racist, hugh?

You somehow managed to, or thought you did at the very least, convince yourself that a practicing Jewish rabbi is anti-Jewish.. ( um...ok...).

Yes, I did. Here (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17263&postcount=9) and here (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17378&postcount=11). (For those who want to know about it)

Maybe you're under the illusion that being against Israel and Zionism is the same as being against Jews.... well that's wrong!!.

As Israel is the state of the Jews that live there and by it’s own definition the place of refuge for the Jews that live elswhere it’s antisemitic to deny the right to exist of Israel.
(With „antisemitism“ used in the sense of racism against Jews as the word is usually used)

A non-muslim, atheist friend of mine couldn't take more than 10 minutes of it without closing it; his comment - "garbage propaganda, I'm not going to waste my time".
(....)
The same atheist friend of mine from above also hates Nazis, does that mean he is "anti-white"? (umm...)

I don’t consider your friend‘s opionions as a testemony for truth. I do have also german non-Muslim friends who consider the US as „source of all evil“ ... *gg*

@ Serafeddin

Will you be ok with Israel or USA using nuclear weapons against Syria and/or Iran in the future?
Will you be ok with Iran nuking down Israel?
Does Israel tell Iran it want’s Iran to be wiped off the map?
Does Iran tell Israel it want’s Israel to be wiped off the map (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/)?

Peace-loving would mean e.g. to stop bombing Israel with Qassam rockets, to stop the terror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFoLYXzkEyU), not voting for a terrorist organisatin like Hamas and to accept and recognize Israel as neighbour in a two state solution

OmarTheFrench

11-20-2006, 11:41 PM

I don’t believe it is. Muhammed Atta, one of the 9/11 WTC pilots was from Egypt and studied in Germany, in Hamburg. He was well-educated and had a wealthy familiy. That’s only an example. Even if you tell someone that there is a lot of injustice in the world, one is free to decide wether he will kill innocent decent people or not.

How do you believe groups like Al-Qaeda recruit ?They use the pain of the Muslims peoples and even if you are well-educated the sentiment of injustice exist in you.

What is bad about Nonie Darwish? I just googled to find some information about her ... and I found something I wanted to ask here in this forum anyway!! I found a website called „Arabs for Israel“! I anyway wanted to ask if this forum section („News and current affairs“) here is represantative for all Muslims or if there are also Muslims who practice their face (believers) and still support USA and argue for Israel’s right to exist and defend itself and if there are websites I could check. If you know more, please tell me. I didn’t read this one so far so I still don’t know about Mrs. Darwish. I’ll check it out and I will see. Maybe she has some more links, too.

"From a former Moslem, these people are in the US to Islamize America and have a scary agenda. They audaciously buy churches and convert them into mosques!"

"Islam is cruel."

""Islam in its present form is almost impossible for many, myself included, to practice; Strict codes of behavior, prayers 5 times a day, washing and cleanliness before prayers, what you say during prayers, fasting that does not allow even drinking water from sunrise to sunset."

"Moslem weddings are not a very holy event.

"I remember as a child secretly telling myself “I want a Christian wedding” and when I grew up, I did; I married a Christian."

"I felt that her Islamic attire was the first visible indication that she and I could never be friends."

:astag:

Well, what is the true cause? You say it is opression. But what is e.g. Mr. Bin Laden thinking? As a religious extremist he himself might simply think that he’s one of the deepest believers and best practicing Muslims of the world? So in his eyes it’s the fundamental and extreme interpretation of „fighting the non-believers“?

I don't talk about benladen I talk about people who join him,why they join him ?Because there are Muslims peoples who are oppressed,its the first cause.

christina

11-20-2006, 11:42 PM

@ Ayep

You are saying that everyone else is the rotten apple

I didn’t.

we see one small nation called Israel among many other Middle Eastern neighbours around it. Does it make sense that you see that everyone else around is the guilty party and that one small nation of Israel is right all the time.

Of course not and I don’t think that all the others are evil. There are millions of good people there, I’m sure about that. But if the governments don’t accept Israel as a neighbour but want to throw them to the sea whereas Israel does accept them as neighbours we do have a problem there, don’t we.

Here you can read parts of the Hamas charta. It doesn’t sound very peace-process-supportive.

Excerpts from the Hamas charta:

„Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

„The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.“

„The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.“

„Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.“

That doesn’t sound like ‚peace‘ to me.

„"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).“

„Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).“

„For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.“

Talking about conspiracy theories ... here you got them all in one.

„The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.“

„The Protocols of the elders of Zion“ is an antisemitic fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_protocols_of_the_elders_of_zion).

OmarTheFrench

11-20-2006, 11:49 PM

The Protocols of the elders of Zion“ is an antisemitic fake.

Sorry but the Great Israel isn't an invention of "The Protocols of the elders of Zion".

christina

11-20-2006, 11:58 PM

@ Omar The French

I related to the last quotation (of the Hamas charta) above that used the fake 'protocol' as a source.

It's late night now ... I'm leaving for today ... have a good night! CU Christina

Ayep

11-21-2006, 12:37 PM

@ Ayep
I didn’t.
Of course not and I don’t think that all the others are evil. There are millions of good people there, I’m sure about that. But if the governments don’t accept Israel as a neighbour but want to throw them to the sea whereas Israel does accept them as neighbours we do have a problem there, don’t we.

Christina I think your 'good intentions' to the path of peace and understanding or love of Zionist Israel is not shared even by many Jews or the Judaism faith.

http://realnews247.com/rabbi_burns_zionist_flag.jpg
http://realnews247.com/anti_zion_jerusalem.jpg
"On Sunday, June 1, 2003 at 5th Ave. and 59th St. in Manhattan, NYC a group of anti-Zionist Jews demonstrated against Zionism and the Zionist State celebrated by marchers in the so-called Israel Day Parade." (Anti-Zionist orthodox Jews protest against Israel ) As improbable as it may seem to the uninformed, a significant number of Jews in the United States, Great Britain, Israel and elsewhere oppose Zionism, Zionist oppression of the Palestinians and, in some instances, even the very existence of the State of Israel itself! We say hidden protest because this tangible opposition has been totally ignored by the news departments of the major television and radio networks, magazines and newspapers (in the last source, some papers, such as The New York Times, may make very brief mention of the protests, but even then they bury articles far from the front page). Jews: Zionism is cause of instability in the world "The Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews will proclaim their loyalty to pure Judaism and their opposition to Zionist heresy, which violates every principle of the Jewish religion. These people believe that the idolatrous Zionist ideology has nothing to do with Orthodox Jews, and that Jews are obligated by Judaism to live in peace and harmony with all other nations throughout the world, including Palestinian natives of course."
http://realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm

http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2002/03/purim_2002_20london.jpg
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, spokesman for Neturei Karta International, announced this evening that the organization of anti - Zionist Jews will publicly burn the Israeli flag in a series of ceremonies around the world on “Purim” Tuesday, February 26. "The Zionist experiment has reached its inevitable conclusion. Death tolls mount and no viable solution is in sight. Slowly the Jewish people are awakening to the reality of Zionism, its rejection of Torah views of exile and redemption, combined with its aggressive stance towards Gentiles in general and Palestinians in particular." foto:Orthodox Jews Burn Israeli Flag in International Ceremony Demonstration of the essence of the Holiday “Purim”

http://ontario.indymedia.org/twiki/pub/Ontario/jpg/2004/jewsforpeace-compact.jpg (http://ontario.indymedia.org/twiki/pub/Ontario/jpg/2004/jewsforpeace-compact.jpg)

I can go on and on with proof and facts but then again you are not really looking and listening. We Muslims are not stupid you know. Your concern for Israel is deeply worrying for us but then again that is typical Zionist mentality.

You are trying hard to discredit people who are against what you belief in with absolutely no proof or evidence which is clearly blind devotion.

„"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).“

It's funny that you brought up this verse cause you are describing your intentions with this. You are living proof what this verse is mentioning sister. We Muslims have no problems co-existing with non-Muslims.
My proof:

"Say (O Muhammad(peace be upon him)to the Kafirun and Mushrikun) O Al-Kafirun(disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and the Al-Qadar, etc.)
I worship not that which you worship
Nor will you worship in what I worship
And I shall not worship in which you are worshipping
Nor will you worship in that I worship
To you be your religion and to me my religion(Islamic Monotheism)"
-(Al-Kafirun verse 109)

Wanting Peace?

"They [Israel] will do everything to make you believe that they want peace - I even believed it once and most of you have believed it - I know that. They will do everything to make sure that people in the West believe that they want peace - they will go to meetings, they will sign documents - they will do all that and then they will make damn sure that there is no chance of any of this happening..."

Haim Bresheeth is an activist and film-maker of Israeli origin, living in Britain, where he is Professor of Cultural Studies at the University of East London.
If you care to listen to him:
http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html#t2

All the people mentioned above are not Muslim. So are you going to discredit everyone without no proof and evdence but pure personal belief.
Sorry sister it don't work that way.

Here you can read parts of the Hamas charta. It doesn’t sound very peace-process-supportive.
That doesn’t sound like ‚peace‘ to me.
Talking about conspiracy theories ... here you got them all in one.

Another one your own personal theory with no proof or evidence to disapprove it.

Another personal statement that does not stand without proof.

„The Protocols of the elders of Zion“ is an antisemitic fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_protocols_of_the_elders_of_zion).

Mabsoot

11-21-2006, 01:00 PM

Hallo to all!

Thank you for your answers.

Here are my statements (I had to split it because it was too long for the character limitation)

@ Mabsoot

If you only read anti-zionist jew-hating propagande history books, this certainly is the result of your view. Why not reading also more balanced books or take books from Israel-defending authors to know about both sides.

Btw: have you ever visited Israel? I mean, do you know the country, have you been there?
I did. It’s a great country with good and decent people. I really liked it very much. Nevertheless I want you to know: I’ve not been to Palestinian areas and I do think that they suffer a lot and that innocent people are beeing killed frequently. I do think that the situation is very bad for innocent Palestinian people. But I do also know, that Hamas and other organisations have to stop the terror, then Israel will stop trying to stop the terrorists. Because that’s what they do. If Hamas terrorists hide in civilian areas and shoot Qassam rockets from there they are a danger for the civilians because Israel has to defend and protect its own population of course from this.

I agree. It is their right. But it’s also the right of the Israelis.

You’re right, I didn’t check the links so far but I will. It’s because I had not enough time. I’ll take time and check it all with full attention *promised*

Sure there is. Would you agree if someone would claim „Muslim Umma is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world!“ You would call it racists and I would absolutely agree with you on that.

hello Christina :) i hope you are doing well,

Thank you for your reply, I understand what you are trying to say, but I do not think that you understand the situation clearly.

1. Israel is in breech of International Law. It is a criminal state. -

Israel is not just a state which is living peacefully with its neighbours. It constantly sends its troops into neighbouring countries such as Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. You need to understand the criminality of Israel in its occupation of these lands. So, i hope that you do look through the links i presented in my last post. Those are not "Pro Palestinians" Links, they are Neutral links from Human Rights organisations. This issue is to do with human life and suffering. We are here to shed light into the desperate plight of people and stand up for justice.

I have been to Palestinian Refugee camps and i know many Palestinian refugees. I have also spoken to many Jews and also even Israeli doctors who work for achieving human rights in that area.

However, i have no need of visiting Israel or even trying to look at their point of view. This is because their point of view is clearly racist and incorrect. I dont know why you find this hard to accept. Why should i look at pro-Israeli view when it is based on racism?

Being pro-Palestinian does not mean we support Hamas, it means we support the rights of the Palestinian people, whether they are Muslim or Christian.

What you said about looking at the Israeli Zionist View point is equivalent if i ask someone to read read Hitler's book Mein Kampf before critisising the Nazis. - A Nonsensical statement.

Zionism is a racist ideology. They believe they are entitled to land no matter who is living there. If you are not a Jew you have no rights.

It seems you forget that there are 100,000s of Palestinians who used to live in what is now called Israel, that Israel occupies lands in 3 different countries, they occupy Syria, Lebanon and all of Palestine.

The People living in Palestine are under constant threat, they have no work, have no water, have no help. They are treated badly at checkpoints.

The links i gave you were not Anti-Jew, infact one of them was made by Jews.

Some of the fiercest critics of Israeli policy are Jews, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Hass etc.

To say that Israel is responding to Palestinian terrorism is wrong. Factually wrong.

Everytime Hamas committed acts of terrorism, they were in response to Israeli actions. Hamas was voted in by the Palestinians because they are not corrupt, because they make good schooling and medical facilities available for their people.

Israel blocks aid to the Palestinians, they shoot at ambulances and they bomb hospitals. - How can you possibly say that all terrorism emnates from Palestine? Israel does not respond to terrorism, it commits terrorism. There are many illegal settlements being built as we speak.

Also, i really hope that you do not feel intimidated by all the people posting here. We simply wish to get at the truth.

Nobody wants anyone to be hurt, as a Muslim i stand up for people's rights.

And the rights of the Palestinians are those which are being trampled on now.

Thank you, i hope that you understand a bit more about the situation there.

Paki Idol

11-22-2006, 12:42 PM

Hello Christina!

You hold the same image about Muslims as people in West do.The image that all Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims.That is a perfect lie, christina.There is no extremism, no transgression, no oopression of woman in Islam and NO place of hatred and mischief in Islam.THose Muslims fighting for their homeland are branded terrorists.Have you ever wondered when the Palestinians started to gain sympathy by the whole world during Israeli-Hezbollah CONFLICT in this very year, a conspiracy was unearth.The conspiracy was that some Muslim terrorists were to blow up 10 aeroplanes.Any proof?That was only to inspite anger against Muslims in the westThe bombings in India were blamed on Pakistan.I ask for proof.The evidences of 9/11 and 7/7 leads to the real story about what the Anti Zionist media says when regarding to 9/11 as 'Clearly an inside job'.Christina, those Muslims are fighting for their homeland are showed terrorists.The truth is that they are NOT terrorists but Fighters in the right sense.They only ARE protecting their homeland and families.That's all.All incidents were self made and were NOT masterminded by Muslim extremists.The real threat is Zionism.Muslims are not the real threat.Muslims are most persecuted but everyone ignores that.Even most International Aid (or human) organisations ignore them.
HAVE A LOOK AT THIS:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/...an-fiction.htm

Taliban, Al Qaeda or Hezbollah.All I know about them is that they are good.They do not love bloodshed.God knows best about the truth.Have you heard of 'New World Order or 'Greater Israel at every expense'.Israel is the real criminal.Muslims are against oppression, hatred, rascism and every kind of evil.Muslims are not against Jews, Pagans or Christians.Muslims, infact against the party of Satan.Undoubtedly, one of them is Pro-Zionism.There is alot to say about truth of Israel.But I would like end here or else I wouldn't be able to stop writing about Zionism.I'll ask you one question only.Who is the one who benefitted most by 9/11 and so called War Against Terrorism?Is it America?Is it Asia including JApan and China?Is it Muslims or Non Muslims?Is it Europe? A BIG NO!!!It is Israel.You wonder how? ~~~~ Cuz America is goind down the same way Germany and Graet Britian did..... And that is the propoganda abd exploiting by Zionists.

taa145

11-26-2006, 05:08 AM

I think the real issue is that the western media's hype against Islam and using key words such as 'extremists', 'fundamentalists' 'radical groups', 'Muslim terrorists' and many others to describe the news related to Muslims and that’s what I call ‘scary’. You’re a victim of the western media just like the entire Muslim population is. You can’t take these two lame videos and try to justify the violence in the middle east and elsewhere.
The second point that I wanted to make is that your comment or conclusion about the real enemy of Islam is probably based of what you’ve been hearing lately in the news and other biased media and other ‘known’ organization that claim to be independent. When I say biased media and known organizations, I include main stream media and organization such as U.N that are totally biased. If you don’t believe it, try not to listen to the main stream media for a couple of months. For instance, if one of your friend learns this news and tells you that there were 2 Israelis and 2 Palestinian were killed in Gaza today. Don’t go and turn on CNN, MSNBC, or BBC. Search some online newspaper that prints news about only Israel and some that prints news only about Palestine. Then go and read a newspaper that prints news about both, may be Times of India. You’ll see the difference… A LOT. If you continue to do this for almost 6 months, you’ll probably forget the words like 'extremists', 'fundamentalists' 'or radical groups'.

christina

12-01-2006, 08:24 PM

Hallo!

Thank you for your answers.

I think, everybody should be opened to see both sides. I think, it leads to much confusion and hate if we only consider one side and don’t listen to the other.

The internet is a perfect tool to find out more about the other side. It’s up to each single one on his own to open his heart and not be afraid and face the other’s reality, too. The world wide web is full of information. I also love to browse the books on amazon.de (or .com or .co.uk or .fr) and read the reviews from customers and find interesting books.

Of course you can go on and nourish a biased few about it all. The Web will also serve perfectly for such purpose.

But I think, if we’re talking about love and peace: both is not for granted and it takes courage, patience and good will to get to know the other side’s view.

Everybody is responsible for that. Today, with the web, nobody can say: I didn’t know, I couldn’t try. At least nobody of those on the earth that are able to access the internet.

I want you to know: I don’t ignore the plight of e.g. the Palestiniens. I don’t ignore that there is a lot of injustice and brutal force. But I blame it on the leaders of e.g. Hamas, that would not accept peace, as you can e.g. read in their charta that I quoted above.

I thought quit a lot about your points of views. I came to the conclusion for now, that it is logic and coherent and I believe that most of you are loving, peace-seeking people.

But the views of most of you posting here about what is going on in the world is quite the opposite of my view.
The question is: which view is closer to the truth?

I don’t think that blaming the US for all the world’s miseries and suspecting a huge „zionists-rule-the-world“ conspiracy will reveal the truth. I think, the truth is more obvious and more sober.

Anyway ... as for the Jews, here I found a book on amazon.com (shipping worldwide) that doesn’t cover political issues but the people and the country of Israel. (Btw I’m christian, not jewish, but I’ve already been in Israel for a visit and I liked the country and the people a lot).

PRO ISRAELI LINKS REMOVED

Thank you all for our discussion, Christina

Mabsoot

12-01-2006, 09:18 PM

Biased View ????? Sorrryy Christina, but we dont share the same guilt that you may do as a German! I nor any of my people are responsible for killing any Jews. My nation doesnt share any guilt. We dont have any silly laws saying can not critisise Jews or Israel

I want you to know: I don’t ignore the plight of e.g. the Palestiniens. I don’t ignore that there is a lot of injustice and brutal force. But I blame it on the leaders of e.g. Hamas, that would not accept peace, as you can e.g. read in their charta that I quoted above.

Really? If you cared, then you would have blamed the murderers, instead, you have such a stone heart, that you blame the people who are suffering the most, the Palestinians. And you allow the Israelis to not share one single percent of blame. This is truly biased and cruel. When Israeli snipers shoot dead children, strip search pregnant women, and bulldoze houses onto the elderly and disabled to build their disgusting dirty settlements, for people like you, this is all the Palestinians fault.

You blame all the deaths of the palestinians on the Palestinians and not on Israel !! This is ridiculous! And it shows your blind love for mass murderers.

Hamas has a right to defend its land from the greediest and blood thirstiest people ever known to mankind.

Any anyway what about before Hamas came into power? What about the whole 60+ years of Murder that Israeli soldiers and settlers have been doing? Was that the Palestinians fault too? How can you blame the Palestinian leadership for small cowardly Jewish soldiers that snipe at kids?

We are not the ones who call Israel an Apartheid State, Did you know that it was Nelson Mandela, who called it that. -

So you have been to Israel, big deal, I have been to Palestinian refugee camps and i know first hand the evil that lurks in the Israeli government.

We are not speaking about Conspiracies, we provided links to independent human rights organisations. It is beyond your capability to accept that?

Or accept that Israel is breaking international Law?

Im afraid thats a load of gobbledegook miss. You continue to post Zionist Pro Israeli Lies. You can not pretend to be neutral. Its a true shame that the plight and suffering of Palestinians and many others continues whilst people such as yourself, perhaps from guilt, continue to support mass murderers such as the blood thirsty lying indecent Zionist Jews.

We have nothing against Jews, or Christians. However, we draw the line at supporting Racists and extremists. That is something you fail to see when you go into Israel

Why dont you go to Palestine, why not visit the families who were massacred by the Jews.

I removed the links, why should i allow you to post links to lies? When Palestinians are murdered and kicked out their land, you smile and say oh look how lovely the Israelis are.

Any human being with a good heart, would understand the plight of the Palestinians and all those oppressed by Zionism.

This is the Israel that you are so proud of:

Deir Yassin The Agony. Documentary About Deir Yassin Massacre Palestine Video (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1352)

Palestine is still the issue - John Pilger - Excellent Video (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245)

Dispatches: The Killing Zone (British Doco in Palestine) (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3523)

But, i guess it doesnt matter, even if Palestinians are treated worse than animals, if people have not got the blessing from God for a soft heart and kind reasoning, then they will always see things from the wrong perspective. To the extent you blame the Palestinian leadership. Their land was taken, they have no rights, they have no work, they have no security, they have no freedom. THere are 100s of checkpoints and daily human rights abuse. Ambulances are shot at, police men are killed and the Israelis fail to prosecute their own people for war crimes. -

aliff

12-01-2006, 09:42 PM

Assalamu A'laikum,

I just want to add few lines. Memri TV videos are quite distorted videos and so its unwise to trust them. Just have a look at their founders. Their founders are:

1. Yigal Carmon (President) - An israeli colonel who was also involved in an 'illegal' occupation in Lebanon in 94-96'.

2. Meyrav Wurmser (Executive director) - A neocon, she is wife of david wurmser who is the mid-east advisor of Dick Cheney

you can read more about Memri TV in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

wassalam. :)

mosabaig

12-01-2006, 11:04 PM

Hello Christina

I just want to mention these dictionary definations, for a moment keep our mind and heart clear from spectulations, suspicions
Terrorrist
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3. (formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.

Extremist
1. a person who goes to extremes, esp. in political matters.
2. a supporter or advocate of extreme doctrines or practices.

Fundamentalism
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
2. the beliefs held by those in this movement.
3. strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles: the fundamentalism of the extreme conservatives.

Islam is a complete code of life, it only makes one better the more one follows, but every person is responcible for his/her actions, the leaders and socities should be correcting them self, else they are setting up bad examples for other groups or extremism terrorism and dectatorships.