I Am A Muslim Woman

[jenn]

I am a Muslim Woman

I am a Muslim woman
Feel free to ask me why
When I walk,
I walk with dignity
When I speak,
I do not lie

I am a Muslim woman
Not all of me you'll see
But what you should appreciate
Is that the choice I make is free

I'm not plagued with depression
I'm neither cheated nor abused
I don't envy other women
And I'm certainly not confused

Note, I speak perfect English
Et un petit peu de Francais aussi
I'm majoring in Linguistics
So you need not speak slowly

I run my own small business
Every cent I earn is mine
I drive my Chevy to school & work
And no, that's not a crime!

You often stare as I walk by
You don't understand my veil
But peace and power I have found
As I am equal to any male!

I am a Muslim woman
So please don't pity me
For God has guided me to truth
And now I'm finally free!

© Copyright 2006 Jenn Zaghloul

[aicha-moslima]

Salaam alaykoum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatuhoe

Dear sister Jenn,

Insha'Allah you and your family have a strong imaan and a good health.

Djazak Allahoe Ghair.
Your poem is very very beautiful...macha'Allah. Thank you verry much for sharing it. I visited your site and it looks really great. Thanks. Djazak Allahoe Ghair.

Wa salaamoe alaykoum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatuhoe
Your sister in Islam, Aicha

[Mabsoot]

Assalmau Alaykum Jenn,

thats a beautiful poem. I wish everyone knew how great, precious and free Muslim women are.

[puremuslim]

Asalamu alaylum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

Very well written...may Allah make you able to write more beautiful poems like this one....

w salam..

[zarah]

:salam2:

:ma: sister,really sublime!:SMILY231:

:wasalam: :arabi1:

[TearfulEyes]

Masha Allah beautiful words full of great meaning. Allah reward you for posting it here.

[Hajar]

Assalaam alaykum sis,

MashaAllah thats really a beautiful poem! Jazak'Allah for sharing :)

Wasalam

[joepierre]

Nice Poem Sister.

You are a free woman - Living in America I presume?
Who gave you that freedom and what are you going to do with that freedom? (these are rhetorical).

Will you help your sisters who do not have opportunity to go to college and major in anything? those who are prevented from going to school in the name of Islam? (Afghanistan).
Will you help those sisters who are cheated and abused? - whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)
Will you help those women who are not allowed by law to drive their chevys to achieve such a priviledge? (Saudi Arabia)
Will you fight for the rights of women who are not even allowed to work - let alone run their own business? (Afghanistan during Taliban rule, and again now in many parts of the country)
Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)

Finally, will you acknowledge that the freedoms and rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home. You are welcome to them. They are for all people.

Food for thought I hope.

Thanks.
JP

[samiha]

Sheesh. ok, i hope nobody minds what I say now, becuz it is truly my opinion.

MEN AND WOMEN WILL NEVER BE EQUAL!!

ok, that being said, I'll prove it. Allah didn't create a man to have children, or have periods. Both men and women have different body structures, modern phsycology says they have diff. ways of learning and mind sets. SO why would you try to make what is not equal equal?

True Islam creates JUSTICE and that's more than EQUALITY (which can never truly be achieved) can do.

my opinion.

[TearfulEyes]

Nice Poem Sister.


Finally, will you acknowledge that the freedoms and rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home. You are welcome to them. They are for all people.

Food for thought I hope.

Thanks.
JP

You are mistaken Mr. JoePierre here. The Christians did not fiught for any freedom. Crusaders invaded to destroy civilizations. Let me give one example, one of the oldest democracies in Europe, Britain, it did not give women the right to own property or even open bank account only in the 1960s!!! On the contrary Muslim civilizations were beacons of fredom for men and women.

[seeking_peace1]

Assalam-o-Alaikum.

well first up it is a beautiful poem.i wish if could write a poem like this some fine day tough ask!!!!!

then i had like to contribute to what sister samiha wrote.Man and Woman is what Allah swt created,only two genders on the face of planet earth.i've never been able to grasp the logic behind comparing things that in the first place have nothing in common.i mean both are differren from eachother.Allah swt have assigned both their duties and rights accordingly so where's the comparision.whats the status quo issue,they have their own roles to play in this universe according to the teaching of Almighty Allah swt.both are dignified in their roles.

They are equal to eachother in their own capacities and roles.there is no comparision in that.i hope i made my point.

W'Salam.

[joepierre]

You are mistaken Mr. JoePierre here. The Christians did not fiught for any freedom. Crusaders invaded to destroy civilizations. Let me give one example, one of the oldest democracies in Europe, Britain, it did not give women the right to own property or even open bank account only in the 1960s!!! On the contrary Muslim civilizations were beacons of fredom for men and women.

TearfulEyes,
The Crusades were not to do with individual freedoms or rights, so they don't prove anyone's point. Unfortunately your example is wrong. Women in Britain could own property and open bank accounts from the 1800's. Please check your source.

To Samiha
You are right about men and women being different, and therefore talk of equality is, of course, somewhat erroneous. I was talking of equality before the law.
Let Islam bring justice! let it bring justice to Pakistan courts!

[TearfulEyes]

JoePierre,

You did not mention your source about women opening bank accounts in 1800's, could you please state the reference?

Please see the link below and scroll to the bottom and read about Sister Jan's story:

http://turntoislam.com/index.php

Thank you

[joepierre]

JoePierre,

You did not mention your source about women opening bank accounts in 1800's, could you please state the reference?

Thank you

An act of parliament in England about 1860 prevented women's property from automatically being passed to her husband upon marriage. Single women could own, trade and sell property long before this. I couldn't find a starting date, but the earliest reference I could find to non Muslim women owning and inheriting property was approx 1400BC (3400 years ago). See the Bible, Numbers chapter 36. I guess there weren't banks around then, though :)
For more in depth discussion on women's rights in England between 1600 and 1800 see http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk/archive/00000860/01/Bailey_2002.pdf from Cambridge university press.

[Paki Idol]

The Muslim sisters in Afghanistan are not allowed to go educaional institutions in the name Of Islam?I believe you are completely wrong in your assumption.Afgani felt liberated during Talibam regime, not Pro American regime.Taliban worked for their betterment.Taliban is not opressor of woman.That is a propoganda to lower the respect fot the people who fight against evil infiltrators.When you talk about violation of women and abusesI would recommend you to look at Western statistics b4 talking about Muslims!The statistics is worst in west than east.Not Giving woman right she deserves is anti-Islamic. Who is more concerned with woman's right?Men or Allah? Of course, Allah!I will fight for their rights.We all will, InshAllah.Woman is equal to man and That is Islamic belief.She is mor intelligent, intellectual and God fearing than man.This is what Islam and science says.

[joepierre]

This is so far off I don't know where to begin.
First I will acknowledge the liberation that Afghanis first felt when the Taliban ended the civil war. But from then on, they went from disaster to disaster. They were an international embarrassment for Muslims.
Why were women prevented from getting an education beyond 4th grade? (they were till 2001).
Is having a 'department for the elimination of vice and protection of virtue' that employs men to publically beat women who are not properly covered proper according to the Koran?
Is allowing life expectancy of women to plummet protecting and promoting the rights of women? (It fell into the 40s during the Taliban's time. You will also notice that it fell below the level for men - this is a classic indication of very poor maternal health - ie women dying in child birth from lack of basic medical care)
Of course Allah has sister's rights in mind more than men, but I am suggesting the Taliban were not following Allah properly.

[omar162]

An act of parliament in England about 1860 prevented women's property from automatically being passed to her husband upon marriage. Single women could own, trade and sell property long before this. I couldn't find a starting date, but the earliest reference I could find to non Muslim women owning and inheriting property was approx 1400BC (3400 years ago). See the Bible, Numbers chapter 36. I guess there weren't banks around then, though :)
For more in depth discussion on women's rights in England between 1600 and 1800 see http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk/archive/00000860/01/Bailey_2002.pdf from Cambridge university press.

So Joe, your source is the Bible? Then the crusaders, the inquisition, the holocaust, slavery, colonialism must have been all granted by the Bible, by your theory, that is; but fortunately, your argument is a joke. First of all, In Britain, MEN who didn't own property didn't even get the right to vote in Britain until 1868 when Benjamin Disraeli decided to give some 3 million British MEN the right to vote under pressure from the Liberal movement led by William Gladstone, who still beat Disraeli in the 1868 election, so WOMEN weren't even in the conversation for any rights whatsoever, so Joe pls, pls. Everybody knows that Women DID NOT get any property inheritance and divorce rights until mid 20th century in the West compare to Islam which gave women all of these rights and more 1400 years ago. So please, Joe, educate yourself before you embarrass yourself to the rest of the world.

[omar162]

This is so far off I don't know where to begin.
First I will acknowledge the liberation that Afghanis first felt when the Taliban ended the civil war. But from then on, they went from disaster to disaster. They were an international embarrassment for Muslims.
Why were women prevented from getting an education beyond 4th grade? (they were till 2001).
Is having a 'department for the elimination of vice and protection of virtue' that employs men to publically beat women who are not properly covered proper according to the Koran?
Is allowing life expectancy of women to plummet protecting and promoting the rights of women? (It fell into the 40s during the Taliban's time. You will also notice that it fell below the level for men - this is a classic indication of very poor maternal health - ie women dying in child birth from lack of basic medical care)
Of course Allah has sister's rights in mind more than men, but I am suggesting the Taliban were not following Allah properly.

Why are you assuming that anyone here is defending the Taliban's action towards women? Everybody knows that the Talibans action toward women weren't Islamic, and if Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was alive today, he would be disgusted with them as well.

[ray.of.light]

Just read the poem !

:ma: :ma:

[gudigak2009]

:salam2:

That's a very meaningful peom. Very beautiful!!! Thanks for sharing it with us.
:wasalam: :shymuslima1:

[Mabsoot]

Hello Joe, the examples that you gave of abuse of women go totally against what the Quran and the sunnah teach. And if you were to have an inkling of knowledge about Islam you will understand why the majority of people who accept Islam in the West are Women. This website is a testamony to that as most of our members are indeed women.

ANd i find it ironic that Joe comes here to bash Muslims and preaches from the bible in support of his own views. Also, misrepresents the status of women in Western Christian society.

Christian Women could not divorce in Europe. Remember King Henry and his 7 wives? His Christian faith would not allow him to divorce, so what did he do to Divorce them? He had 2 of them executed! - Oh, and the last witch was killed in the 18th Century.

English Witches 1735 Witchcraft Act

81 people from Prestonpans who were killed during the witchcraft trials of the 16th and 17th century.

American Witches!

Salem Witch Trials 1692

It was the result of a period of factional infighting and Puritan witch hysteria which led to the deaths of 20 people (14 women, 6 men) and the imprisonment of 150 more people.

Infact, women were seen and still are seen as sexual objects. They are seen as the carriers of Eve's sins. They are seen as temptresses and evil


We are not even talking the middle Ages, but relatively recently.

There have been a few history lessons you have obviously missed out on:
There would not have been suffrage or the great "emancipation" movement that occurred in the 20th Century!

Get your Facts right first:

Property Rights of Women in Nineteenth-Century England (http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/PROPERTY.htm)

English Law:

- A married woman has no legal existence whether or not she is living with her husband;

- her property is his property;

- she cannot make a will, the law gives what she has to her husband despite her wishes or his behavior;

- she may not keep her earnings

- he may sue for restitution of conjugal rights and thus force her, as if a slave to return to his home;

-she is not allowed to defend herself in divorce

- she cannot divorce him since the House of Lords in effect will not grant a divorce to her;

- she cannot sue for libel;

In short, as her husband, he has the right to all that is hers; as his wife she has no right to anything that is his. (33)

The property rights of women during most of the nineteenth century were dependent upon their marital status. Once women married, their property rights were governed by English common law, which required that the property women took into a marriage, or acquired subsequently, be legally absorbed by their husbands. Furthermore, married women could not make wills or dispose of any property without their husbands' consent. Marital separation, whether initiated by the husband or wife, usually left the women economically destitute, as the law offered them no rights to marital property. Once married, the only legal avenue through which women could reclaim property was widowhood. Women who never married maintained control over all their property, including their inheritance. These women could own freehold land and had complete control of property disposal. The notoriety of the 1836 Caroline Norton Case highlighted the injustice of women's property rights and influenced parliamentary debates to reform property laws. The women's movement generated the support which eventually resulted in the passage of the Married Women's Property Law in 1882. England's mid-nineteenth century focus on married women's property rights culminated in the transformation of the subordinate legal status of married women.

ISLAM Does Not Forbid Women from having an Individual Status. She is not The Property of her husband.

She has the Right to divorce, keep her money and spend it as she wishes, she has the right to education, right to be provided for by her husband properly, right to work. Many Rights. I Suggest You look at My Signature to Learn More!

:hijabi: The Status of Women in Islam (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2351) :hijabi:

[Imad]

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh dear sisters and brothers.

Hello JoePierre

Some statements from the bible. See Genesis 3:16 (New International Version):
--------------------------
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse
----------------------

Can you please explain for me joe the statement about the man who has to rule over the woman. It's from the bible.

Thank you,

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh dear brothers and sisters.

[samiha]

Assalamu Alaykum to all my sis and bros.

I just wanted to say to Jenn that her poem was Mashallah beautiful. I really dislike how people are going away from the point of the thread which was to read a poem by a Muslim woman about HER feelings. If others want a clearificaiton I feel they should go make a different thread and not do it there.

I am liberated by Islam. NO man can say he feels that that is not the case, because HE IS A MAN, and he probably hasn't given Islam a fair chance.

[joepierre]

So Joe, your source is the Bible? Then the crusaders, the inquisition, the holocaust, slavery, colonialism must have been all granted by the Bible, by your theory, that is; but fortunately, your argument is a joke. First of all, In Britain, MEN who didn't own property didn't even get the right to vote in Britain until 1868 when Benjamin Disraeli decided to give some 3 million British MEN the right to vote under pressure from the Liberal movement led by William Gladstone, who still beat Disraeli in the 1868 election, so WOMEN weren't even in the conversation for any rights whatsoever, so Joe pls, pls. Everybody knows that Women DID NOT get any property inheritance and divorce rights until mid 20th century in the West compare to Islam which gave women all of these rights and more 1400 years ago. So please, Joe, educate yourself before you embarrass yourself to the rest of the world.


Omar, please don't get mad, we are all friends here right?
My use of the Bible was not to make any logical statements about holocaust or slavery or anything else. I was only referring to it as an early example of women owning property in a non-muslim context. that is all. Any assertion that I support any of the events you mentioned is dishonest of you.
(on a side note, I don't think the Bible does either. If it does, pls show me chapter and verse)

I notice you have also been dishonest with the quote from our sister. She talked about needing her husband to sign the back of a bank cheque. You turned that into a statement that 'women in Britain could not own property' till the 1960s which is not true. It is not good enough to say 'everyone knows'. I asked a western lawyer who studied english law. Here is a reference to Maryland state law (which though is American would have resembled English law at the time). http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001/000060/html/am60p--26.html
Please note this refers to single women owning property and clearly refers to a 'woman of some property' in the 1600s. I am not talking about married women's property law, just correcting the inaccurate statements you made.

All this is beside the point though, of my original question, which no-one has had a crack at. Where did Sister Jean (who wrote the poem) get her rights to drive a car, own a business, get an education?
All good things come from Allah, but in this case (if she lives in America, which I think she does), is it not true that Allah gave her the rights using Christians? It was they who fought for them in that country, not Muslims.
Please note again, I am talking in Sister Jenn's context only. Please don't accuse me of saying that all women's rights ever have been gained by Christians! we know that is not true.
Peace.

[joepierre]

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh dear sisters and brothers.

Hello JoePierre

Some statements from the bible. See Genesis 3:16 (New International Version):
--------------------------
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse
----------------------

Can you please explain for me joe the statement about the man who has to rule over the woman. It's from the bible.

Thank you,

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh dear brothers and sisters.

Hello Imad, thankyou for your question, and the polite and civilised way you put it.
The passage you quote is from very early in the Bible, right after Adam and Eve first sinned. The passage is part of the curse or punishment that is a result of the first sin. Both Adam and Eve are cursed, not just Eve as many people think (see Genesis 3:17).
This verse is part of a punishment or curse, it is a prediction of what will occur, but it is not a statement of how things should be. This is the unfortunate consequences of human sin, not a guide to how people should live.

It seems strange that Allah would curse people, but later he deals with it by taking the curse on himself. Isaiah 53:5-6 "He was wounded and crushed because of our sins by taking our punishment he has made us completely well. All of us were like sheep that had wandered off, we had gone our own way, but the Lord gave him the punishment we deserved"

and later, from Romans 3:24 "God treats us much better than we deserve, and because of Christ Jesus, he freely accepts us and sets us free from our sins. God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life's blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God".

Thus according to the Bible, people are cursed and later forgiven by God and the curse will be undone, therefore, according to the Bible, men should not rule over women.

Thanks,

Wassalmoelaikoem

[joepierre]

Hello Joe, the examples that you gave of abuse of women go totally against what the Quran and the sunnah teach. And if you were to have an inkling of knowledge about Islam you will understand why the majority of people who accept Islam in the West are Women. This website is a testamony to that as most of our members are indeed women.

ANd i find it ironic that Joe comes here to bash Muslims and preaches from the bible in support of his own views. Also, misrepresents the status of women in Western Christian society.



Hello Mabsoot,
Thankyou for your reply. I will read the links.
I agree the examples I gave go against the Quran and sunnah, that is why I am appauled that they occur in Muslim countries!

I am definately not here to bash Muslims or Islam! please forgive me if you think I have done this. I simply want to see all people on earth treated fairly and justly and as Allah wills. If Christians have violated Allah's laws, I will point it out to them and resist them. If Muslims have done the same thing, I will also point it out to them and resist them too. I am not bashing anyone, simply trying to understand Allah's will and follow it.

I am not trying to preach from the Bible. Read my last post to Omar for my use of it there. As for Imad, I have just answered his question to the best of my knowledge that Allah has generously given to me. If that is preaching, then any quote (including Imad's) is also.
Peace.

[OmarTheFrench]

Thus according to the Bible, people are cursed and later forgiven by God and the curse will be undone, therefore, according to the Bible, men should not rule over women.

Thanks,

Wassalmoelaikoem

According to bible or to you ?

But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11-3


" A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. 4 She must be quiet.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
But she will be saved through motherhood, provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Timothy 2 11-15

[joepierre]

According to bible or to you ?

But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11-3


" A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. 4 She must be quiet.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
But she will be saved through motherhood, provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Timothy 2 11-15

The Bible can be made to say things contrary to Christianity if quoted out of context. In a similar way, the Qu'ran can be made to say things against Islam if quoted out of context. Nevertheless, you have correctly quoted the above verses and they deserve an answer. I will do my best.

Being the head does not have to involve domination or injustice. Indeed the Bible says man should love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (ie men should be willing to die for their wives).

The Timothy passage is in a letter from Paul advising Timothy on how to run the church where he was located. It was in an area with a large pagan fertility cult running where the common practice was for women to dominate and rule over men. The christians were to be noticably different from the surrounding society, hence Paul's instructions in this case. In other of Paul's letters it is clear that women were talking and prophecying in church and this was commended.

Eve was decieved (by the serpent in Genesis), but they both sinned. Adam sinned by knowingly joining Eve in her sin. The bible is adamant about this - Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory"

As for childbirth, the pagan background of the believers taught that women should go involve themselves in idol worship in order to give birth or they would be in danger, thus Paul reassures them that she will be safe in the care of God.

I hope this helps.
Peace.

[OmarTheFrench]

Being the head does not have to involve domination or injustice. Indeed the Bible says man should love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (ie men should be willing to die for their wives).


This doesn't explain: "But I want you to know that Christ is NOT the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11-3"

But I don't want harass you ;)

[samiha]

sis alhamdulillah, bro Omar was quoting from the Bible, not giving opinion.

The not doesn't belong there, as it is a quote.

Wassalam.

[Imad]

Hello Imad, thankyou for your question, and the polite and civilised way you put it.
The passage you quote is from very early in the Bible, right after Adam and Eve first sinned. The passage is part of the curse or punishment that is a result of the first sin. Both Adam and Eve are cursed, not just Eve as many people think (see Genesis 3:17).
This verse is part of a punishment or curse, it is a prediction of what will occur, but it is not a statement of how things should be. This is the unfortunate consequences of human sin, not a guide to how people should live.

It seems strange that Allah would curse people, but later he deals with it by taking the curse on himself. Isaiah 53:5-6 "He was wounded and crushed because of our sins by taking our punishment he has made us completely well. All of us were like sheep that had wandered off, we had gone our own way, but the Lord gave him the punishment we deserved"

and later, from Romans 3:24 "God treats us much better than we deserve, and because of Christ Jesus, he freely accepts us and sets us free from our sins. God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life's blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God".

Thus according to the Bible, people are cursed and later forgiven by God and the curse will be undone, therefore, according to the Bible, men should not rule over women.

Thanks,

Wassalmoelaikoem

Thank Joepierre,

But you have to know that Allah subhanahu wata3ala didn't curse Adam and Eva. They repented for their sin and He forgave them. So no sin and no curse.

“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)

When you said about the curse it's forgiven after Jesus has been wounded and crushed ( in your opinion), I thought :"What about the people before Jesus in your opinion".

The Quraan gives us the answer.

“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)

In your opinion jesus is wounded and crushed for our sins, but the bible teaches ( and this a contradiction) that no one is punished for the sins of others but only for his sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).

and read what Allah teaches us:

“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.” (Quran 6:164)

Is it fair to put someone else in jail to forgive others. Allah can forgive every sin without punishing other who had no sin.

Thank you

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh dear brothers and sister

[newusman]

mashALLAH sis nice poem. May Allah guide us all and may we all live and die in emaan. :arabi1:

[newusman]

Nice Poem Sister.

You are a free woman - Living in America I presume?
Who gave you that freedom and what are you going to do with that freedom? (these are rhetorical).

Will you help your sisters who do not have opportunity to go to college and major in anything? those who are prevented from going to school in the name of Islam? (Afghanistan).
Will you help those sisters who are cheated and abused? - whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)
Will you help those women who are not allowed by law to drive their chevys to achieve such a priviledge? (Saudi Arabia)
Will you fight for the rights of women who are not even allowed to work - let alone run their own business? (Afghanistan during Taliban rule, and again now in many parts of the country)
Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)

Finally, will you acknowledge that the freedoms and rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home. You are welcome to them. They are for all people.

Food for thought I hope.

Thanks.
JP

Firslty I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Following are the answers to your queries
1) Will you help your sisters who do not have opportunity to go to college and major in anything? Those who are prevented from going to school in the name of Islam? (Afghanistan).
Answer:
• There were and are no proper schools, colleges or universities in Afghanistan since the cold war period, so what kind of schools or colleges are you talking about
• You make it sound as if all the Afghan male population went to schools and colleges and they are all literate while the females stayed at home (as according to you they were “prevented from going to school in the name of Islam.” Well if Afghanis male were literate then they wouldn’t be occupied by US and NATO forces and they won’t have warlords ruling over them.
• Muslims in Afghanistan don’t even have proper food to eat, they don’t have clean water to drink, they don’t have medicine to treat the ill and they have been in a state of war since 1979, you really don’t expect them to go university in such a state (regardless of gender).
• Yeah InshALLAH I would like to help my sisters in Afghanistan by first stopping the indiscriminate killing of civilians.

2) Will you help those sisters who are cheated and abused? - whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)
Answer:
• Well taking a one off incident from Pakistan really doesn’t mean that the Pakistani govt. has a law to gang rape women who talk with men over the phone. Firstly whoever did this should be brought to justice.
• If I were to look at statistics then let’s have a look at stats of U.S where every 9 seconds a women is assaulted or beaten. 4000000 women a year are assaulted by their partners, everyday 4 women are murdered by boyfriends or husbands. To have a look at more click on http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/stats.htm
• Oh yeah and lets not forget Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo bay and also lets keep in mind the US soldiers involved in the GANG RAPE of a 14 year old Muslim girl in IRAQ. All of this is from the DEFENDERS of the “Free Society”.
• Sexual Abuse By Military Recruiters
More Than 100 Women Raped Or Assaulted By Recruiters In Past Year http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/19/national/main1913849.shtml

3 & 4) Will you help those women who are not allowed by law to drive their chevys to achieve such a priviledge? (Saudi Arabia) ,
Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)
Answer:
• Well if Saudi women (by majority) don’t have a problem, for not being allowed to drive, then who are you to question? With my own experience in Saudi, women are given respect and taken care of more I have ever seen before, the male has to do everything, while literally the women is the Queen of the house.
Following has been taken from this website. Do visit it to clear you misconceptions and for a detailed explanation.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html
• “Men and women are different in their responsibilities towards the families that they are strongly encouraged to set up. Women are not obligated to work, whereas men are obligated. The man must provide for the family, but the woman does not have to spend out of her money for it, though she gets a reward for doing so. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. “

For more detail on the women driving issue click on the following link
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45880&ln=eng&txt=women%20driving

One of the things to be noted is that none of the Muslim majority countries or the so called sharia countries these days follow sharia in totality.
Thanks

[azlina_sam]

Assalamualaikum Sister,

Lovely poem you've composed... :)

:muslim_child:

Wassalam
Azlina Sam
Singapore

[haqa]

TearfulEyes,
The Crusades were not to do with individual freedoms or rights, so they don't prove anyone's point. Unfortunately your example is wrong. Women in Britain could own property and open bank accounts from the 1800's. Please check your source.

To Samiha
You are right about men and women being different, and therefore talk of equality is, of course, somewhat erroneous. I was talking of equality before the law.
Let Islam bring justice! let it bring justice to Pakistan courts!

Mr.

I`m asking you whether u have full informations about crusades or no? If not , read more, then u can see who and why have organised these shamefull war. Even some non muslims admit that the cristians should be ashamed with crusades.

You wrote : Let Islam bring justice! let it bring justice to Pakistan courts![/QUOTE]

Islam brought peace all around the world, bur people are ones who do wrong, not Islam.
Even in Pakistan men are the one who make mistakes and evil deeds, not Islam.

So what I would like to suggest you is read more about Islam and you`ll see.

[joepierre]

This doesn't explain: "But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11-3"

But I don't want harass you ;)

Omar,

Don't worry, I don't feel harrassed. It is a pleasure to reply. Unfortunately at the moment I am moving house, so I don't have time to respond to all the good posts that people have left me, so forgive me if I am brief.

Sorry about leaving out the bit of the verse you mentioned.

It is true that in Christian circles the role of men and women are debated a lot, using the very verses you quoted. It is a difficult section, and I don't know the exact meaning. What I can do at this stage is to suggest some things that it doesn't mean:

Virtually all Christians will agree that the verse does NOT mean that men have superior abilities, talents or minds to women. Further it does not mean that women are in any way inferior to men or that men excel over women in any way.
If any submission of women is to occur, it is to be voluntary and not enforced. That is, a man does not have the right to make a woman submit to any male leadership if she doesn't want to. That is between her and Allah.
The relationship between Christ and God is characterised by voluntary submission, not domination.
Further, the relationship between people is to be based in love, not submission or domination. The Bible also says "Dear Friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-8).

Thanks for your questions, now I have a question about the Bible for you: What does this mean? "It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) (NIV)

And of course, I don't want to harrass you either. ;)

Peace,
JP

[joepierre]

Thankyou brother for your well thought out reply.
First to clarify, I was explaining about what the Bible teaches, rather than my own opinion. In any case, your replies from the Qu'ran address the issues well - except for the last bit (quoted below)




In your opinion jesus is wounded and crushed for our sins, but the bible teaches ( and this a contradiction) that no one is punished for the sins of others but only for his sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).

and read what Allah teaches us:

“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.” (Quran 6:164)

Is it fair to put someone else in jail to forgive others. Allah can forgive every sin without punishing other who had no sin.



I agree with your end statement about fairness. It is grossly unfair for an innocent person to be punished for the sins of another person. There is only one exception to this, if a person commits a sin against another and it is that person who takes the punishment, it is not injustice, it is generosity.

For example: If Imran steals some money from Irshad, Imran has done wrong against Irshad.
Justice is if Imran returns all the money to Irshad.
Injustice is if we make Shahid pay his money to Irshad (because Shahid is innocent).
But if Irshad says to Imran "you can keep the money", that is not injustice, that is generosity (or grace).
Notice that being generous cost Irshad something - that is, the punishment (or cost) had to be paid by somebody or there would be no justice.

So getting back to real life, we know that our sins are against God, even the ones that we do against each other (eg stealing). Jesus' punishment for people's sins will be generosity rather than injustice ONLY if Jesus is actually God. So when Jesus was punished in our place, it was an act of mercy by God (because he took the punishment himself) and it was an act of justice because the punishment was paid.

That, I think, is what the Bible teaches.

Peace.

[joepierre]

Hi Newusman,
Thankyou for your quote. I'm glad you took the opportunity to reply.


Firslty I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity.


• There were and are no proper schools, colleges or universities in Afghanistan since the cold war period, so what kind of schools or colleges are you talking about
• You make it sound as if all the Afghan male population went to schools and colleges and they are all literate while the females stayed at home (as according to you they were “prevented from going to school in the name of Islam.” Well if Afghanis male were literate then they wouldn’t be occupied by US and NATO forces and they won’t have warlords ruling over them.
• Muslims in Afghanistan don’t even have proper food to eat, they don’t have clean water to drink, they don’t have medicine to treat the ill and they have been in a state of war since 1979, you really don’t expect them to go university in such a state (regardless of gender).
• Yeah InshALLAH I would like to help my sisters in Afghanistan by first stopping the indiscriminate killing of civilians.

There were and are schools there all along, of course not as nice most of the world, but enough to get some education. Some colleges, though damaged and struggling stayed open throughout. so some (of course, very small number) did go to college.

The literacy rate in Afghanistan is now about 30% amoung men and much lower amoung women. While the Taliban were in power, they prevented girls from going to school beyond 4th grade. (I originally added "in the name of Islam" because that's the reason the Taliban gave, but you could rightly argue that they got it wrong so it wasn't in the name of true Islam - fair enough).

Why does literacy make a difference to having warlord rule or Nato/US involved?



2) Will you help those sisters who are cheated and abused? - whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)
Answer:
• Well taking a one off incident from Pakistan really doesn’t mean that the Pakistani govt. has a law to gang rape women who talk with men over the phone. Firstly whoever did this should be brought to justice.
• If I were to look at statistics then let’s have a look at stats of U.S where every 9 seconds a women is assaulted or beaten. 4000000 women a year are assaulted by their partners, everyday 4 women are murdered by boyfriends or husbands. To have a look at more click on http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/stats.htm
• Oh yeah and lets not forget Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo bay and also lets keep in mind the US soldiers involved in the GANG RAPE of a 14 year old Muslim girl in IRAQ. All of this is from the DEFENDERS of the “Free Society”.
• Sexual Abuse By Military Recruiters
More Than 100 Women Raped Or Assaulted By Recruiters In Past Year http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/19/national/main1913849.shtml

The one off incident from Pakistan did make headlines and the men were (eventually) brought to justice and the woman compensated. Also I was really happy to hear today that Pakistan has amended its rape laws to move them back in the penal system. That means that women who accuse men of rape are much less likely to be accused and punished for adultery. This is great news and a tribute to Musharaf and others who have fought hard to bring this change about.

I am not sure of the point of the rest of your quote here. Are you trying to see who behaves the worst? An attack on others is not a defence of yourself. If it helps, you may want to know that I too have been a long standing opponent of the Iraq war (and Afghanistan) and alot of US foreign policy and I am equally appaulled by what you write.


3 & 4) Will you help those women who are not allowed by law to drive their chevys to achieve such a priviledge? (Saudi Arabia) ,
Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)
Answer:
• Well if Saudi women (by majority) don’t have a problem, for not being allowed to drive, then who are you to question? With my own experience in Saudi, women are given respect and taken care of more I have ever seen before, the male has to do everything, while literally the women is the Queen of the house.
Following has been taken from this website. Do visit it to clear you misconceptions and for a detailed explanation.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html
• “Men and women are different in their responsibilities towards the families that they are strongly encouraged to set up. Women are not obligated to work, whereas men are obligated. The man must provide for the family, but the woman does not have to spend out of her money for it, though she gets a reward for doing so. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. “

For more detail on the women driving issue click on the following link
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45880&ln=eng&txt=women%20driving

One of the things to be noted is that none of the Muslim majority countries or the so called sharia countries these days follow sharia in totality.
Thanks

Well have heard several accounts from women in Saudi Arabia - including some first hand ones - which differ greatly to yours. But I am sure that in any large group of people you will find diversity of opinion.

From the link you supplied about women driving in Saudi Arabia, it includes the following as reason #7
"7 – When women drive it leads to overcrowding in the streets, or it deprives some young men of the opportunity to drive cars when they are more deserving of that. "

Are you serious? Are you telling me this is one of the good reasons? Why are men more deserving? Ask Jenn if she thinks they are.

Lastly, you haven't yet answered this

"Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)"
As far as I know, the recent law change in Pakistan does not change this. Please let me know if it has.
Thanks

[Imad]

assalamoealaikoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh dear brothers and sisters,

Hello JoePierre,

Thank you for your answer.All praise to Allah you agree with me about the first two verses from the Quran. This according to your reply, if i am wrong tell me the opposite. So no curse and no sin.

If you agree with me, why are you defending the opinion:" jesus has died for our sins".

I also have noticed that you believe jesus is God, is this true?

According to the bible jesus prayed to God, so how can a God pray to another God.?

If jesus was a God ( according to bible) and he wanted to sacrifice himself why did he say: " Eli Eli Lama sabachtani" d you know what this means?

Thank you i will wait on your answer,

Wassalamoeaalakoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh dear brothers and sisters,

[NewMuslim]

:salam2: all Brothers/Sisters in Islam.
I see that there is a mini-debate against Christianity going on here. If this is in the wrong place, please tell me as I have only seen the past 2 posts and assumed there was a debate going on.

I'd like to contribute with some questions:

1) Why does Paul contradict Jesus?

2) Why is Paul such a sexist (I.E Women should never speak in church)

3) Why do Christians "pick and choose" in the Bible which parts to take literally and which ones to not do so? If it's trully God's Holy Word, wouldn't all understand it equally?

4) How come Christians believe that the Bible is 100% accurate even though the Gospels were written down way after the lives of the Apostles? Even if it was passed down orally and then written, don't you think there would be some corruptions after it was written?

5) Why is there no mention of the Trinity in the Bible? Why would God want to confuse His people as to not mentioning such an earth-shaking belief in His Holy Book?

6) Why, at the Council of Nicea, was the Bible put together? Who's to say that the people (who were Christian humans, BTW) didn't "pick and choose", as modern Christians do, so that the Bible agrees with their theologies?

7) Why did the Council of Nicea ban the Apocalypse of Peter (which, might I add, was written by Peter himself and contradicted current Christian theologies)?

8) How the heck did crucified Jesus "not break a bone in his body" (there's an Old Testament verse saying this I think in Isaiah)? Wouldn't him "not breaking a bone in his body" sugest that he wasn't crucified at all?

9) Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve (as He did according to the Qur'an)? Why can God forgive me of killing 100 people if I asked, but not forgive a man and woman for eating an apple?

10) "Adam, where art thou?" were the words of God according to the Bible book of Genesis. God is All-Knowing, so why would He ask a question? The same can be asked with the verse: "Woman, why weapest thou?" (which Jesus said according to the Bible).

11) Why do some Christians try and disprove Islam by saying "Allah isn't loving because He doesn't always forgive His servents"? The mere fact that the Christians say that "God will always forgive them of their sins" tells me that God isn't God, seeing as to how He must forgive you of your sins. If He doesn't have to forgive you of your sins, then that attempted Islam rebutal is dead.

12) God is eternal, correct? Then this raises two questions:

12a) If God is eternal, and Jesus is God, then how is Jesus God's son? His begotten son?

12b) If God is eternal, and Jesus is God, then why did Jesus die? If something is eternal, death is not possible.

I'll come up with more later. But, Alhamduallah for these refutals were revealed to me from Allah. I couldn't possibly have come up with these by myself.

[Imad]

Assalamoealaikoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh dear brothers and sisters,

Hello Joepierre,

You have to know that our knowledge is limited, because we are Human beings. We cannot know everything. We have to trust on the almighty Allah because He knows everything. We cannot say the woman and man have to be equal in everything. I know there are emotional/biological differences between man and woman, so they can never be equal in everything. an example is pregnancy, woman can get pregnant and man not. The hormonal balances in man and woman are differend. So if Allah says two woman as witness in some particular cases we obey. I do not know everything but i hope the following article which hqs been posted by our brother islamicfadjr will help you to understand a litlebit the isue about two witnesses.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=799

thank you

Wassalamoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh dear brothers and sisters

[joepierre]

Thank you Imad.
JP

[joepierre]

:salam2: all Brothers/Sisters in Islam.
I see that there is a mini-debate against Christianity going on here. If this is in the wrong place, please tell me as I have only seen the past 2 posts and assumed there was a debate going on.

I'd like to contribute with some questions:

1) Why does Paul contradict Jesus?

2) Why is Paul such a sexist (I.E Women should never speak in church)

3) Why do Christians "pick and choose" in the Bible which parts to take literally and which ones to not do so? If it's trully God's Holy Word, wouldn't all understand it equally?

4) How come Christians believe that the Bible is 100% accurate even though the Gospels were written down way after the lives of the Apostles? Even if it was passed down orally and then written, don't you think there would be some corruptions after it was written?

5) Why is there no mention of the Trinity in the Bible? Why would God want to confuse His people as to not mentioning such an earth-shaking belief in His Holy Book?

6) Why, at the Council of Nicea, was the Bible put together? Who's to say that the people (who were Christian humans, BTW) didn't "pick and choose", as modern Christians do, so that the Bible agrees with their theologies?

7) Why did the Council of Nicea ban the Apocalypse of Peter (which, might I add, was written by Peter himself and contradicted current Christian theologies)?

8) How the heck did crucified Jesus "not break a bone in his body" (there's an Old Testament verse saying this I think in Isaiah)? Wouldn't him "not breaking a bone in his body" sugest that he wasn't crucified at all?

9) Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve (as He did according to the Qur'an)? Why can God forgive me of killing 100 people if I asked, but not forgive a man and woman for eating an apple?

10) "Adam, where art thou?" were the words of God according to the Bible book of Genesis. God is All-Knowing, so why would He ask a question? The same can be asked with the verse: "Woman, why weapest thou?" (which Jesus said according to the Bible).

11) Why do some Christians try and disprove Islam by saying "Allah isn't loving because He doesn't always forgive His servents"? The mere fact that the Christians say that "God will always forgive them of their sins" tells me that God isn't God, seeing as to how He must forgive you of your sins. If He doesn't have to forgive you of your sins, then that attempted Islam rebutal is dead.

12) God is eternal, correct? Then this raises two questions:

12a) If God is eternal, and Jesus is God, then how is Jesus God's son? His begotten son?

12b) If God is eternal, and Jesus is God, then why did Jesus die? If something is eternal, death is not possible.

I'll come up with more later. But, Alhamduallah for these refutals were revealed to me from Allah. I couldn't possibly have come up with these by myself.

Salam,

Thanks for the questions, they are all good. I only have time for a quick reply, but I will do my best to the best of my knowledge:


1. I don't think Paul contradicts Jesus, I think he backs him up and reinforces what he was teaching.

2. I don't think Paul is sexist - please see my earlier postings for more on this including your quote.

3. Some parts of the Bible are easier to understand, but Christians believe it is all God's word, so they do not pick and choose. All passages have to be understood in their correct context, this is not picking and choosing.

4. All four Gospels were written within the life time of the Apostles. MArk was around 60, Matthew and luke within the next 20 years and John last in about the year 90.
At that time (especially for Mark) there were many people alive who remembered Jesus and would have discredited the Gospels if they had written lies.

Written copies of the gospels were made and the originals are lost. However, the gospels were copied then distributed widely, and those copies were copied. There are many copies and fragments (ie hundreds) which survive today that were found all over the mediteranean area before the year 300, and all of these are remarkably similar. This means that very few (if any) corruptions of the text occured because if they had, the copies would be different.

5. The word Trinity is not in the Bible. But the concept is there clearly and God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all affirmed clearly as being God, and being one God. (Christians are not polytheists. Like Muslims, they believe in one true God).

6. Where the Bible was put together, it was a recognition of the books that were widely in use in the church and had Apostolic authorship or connection. The council was not presented with a menu of books that they chose and rejected from. It was more a formalisation process than a selection process.

7. The Apocolypse of Peter was banned because it was clearly not written by the Apostle Peter. It reflects a Gnostic view point. Gnosticism was a heresy that grew up after 200, so Peter could not have written it.

8. There is a verse in Psalms saying none of Jesus' bones were broken. Crucifiction would not neccesarily break your bones. The hands and feet are nailed to the cross. The hand nails normally went in between the bones in the wrist, so they didn't break the hand.

9. The Bible suggests that God did forgive Adam and Eve. Adam taught his sons to worship God, so it is clear he was still a believer.
They still had to suffer consequences for their sin, which is the stuff listed in Genesis 3.

10. Sometimes a person asks another person even if they know, as a way of talking to them. Sometimes I ask my child why they are crying when I already know, so they can tell me and I can comfort them better.

11. Why? I don't know.

12 a. The Bible says Jesus is God come to earth in human form.
He is not a son like you or I have a son. He is a son like a representative, ambassador, yet still God himself.

12 b. The Bible says that Jesus died, His human nature experienced death. God cannot die and Jesus human body was raised up again.

I hope these help clear things up.

I have a question for you: In the Bible verses below, what was Jesus claiming when he said "Son of Man?"

Luke 5:17-25
One day as he [Jesus] was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick.
Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus.
When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."
Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.
(NIV)

Thanks

[mistrx]

Hello everybody

About the poem: I love it. I only can say mashallah! This is a very good way to be a good influence and participate with brothers and sisters. Again mashallah.


and some answers for some questions,


Here are some thoughts concerning the questions of Joe Pierre, which may not lead him to the direct light, because of my imperfection, but I felt the duty to write something about it..

The situation in Afghanistan- one of the poorest countries in the world, is very bad. Biggest problems, after poverty, non functioning government, no army, warlords, production of over 90% worlds opium, US occupation, injustice, are of course the role of woman in Afghanistan which is not the best compared to the rest of the world.

” …sisters who do not have opportunity to go to college and major in anything? … in the name of Islam? (Afghanistan).”

Taliban indeed is not the perfect pattern for a Muslim system, but to say that women in Afghanistan are completely prevented of any education is wrong. They seek Islamic education at home, like reading the Quran and learning the Sunnah in the name of ISLAM. It is true that they are prevented to go to public schools (and things are changing nowadays, there a lots of women in Universities), but the way you pose the question is not very clear: Afghanistan is not the only Muslim country in the world and in other Muslim countries women did not have to fight for their rights like in America, where supposedly the Author of this poem lives with all its “advantages” towards women. Do you know who all Muslims respect to be one of the greatest educated scholars of all times? Hz. Aisha, the wife of our beloved Prophet (pbuh). You talk about revolution, emancipation, feminism, women rights, ect: that simply is an illusion. You are not getting a women president in a million years. You never will have a woman priest. Women will always be sexual objects in the western world! They will never earn as much as men do! And they will always remain as consume slaves.

”….rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home”

Christians liberated the women? Just think for yourself, how many women are there in the Vatican who have authority? None.

In Yemen, Malaysia, Maldives, Egypt, Syria… and a lot of other Muslim countries: women are allowed to, own property, drive cars, seek education or divorce by the allowance of ISLAM. And the most important thing is that these advantages were not achieved due a feminist revolution or something alike.

You may say that the bible was misinterpreted for almost two thousand years (what would nobody would believe. At least if you lie to yourself), until in the last centuries where westerners invented more compared to the orient, inventing inter alia lots of ideologies, of which most came to a conclusion that in the civilized world- woman too, must work in the chain of capitalist movement which makes the rich richer and the poor poorer (eventually).

Attacking the weakest and the most non-functioning Muslim country is easy. Yet I could go on and tell you about the past two hundred years until now about American history, (racism, sexism, consumerism, racism...) just to defame you. But I won’t (because that wouldn’t satisfy me).

The weakest superficial argument one could ever bring is: a gang rape sanction in a Muslim country.

” whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)”

This is not just weak, this is ugly and disgusting. Such a sanction is not Islamic; it is not even a sanction it’s a heavy crime and has nothing to do with any law codec of Sharia (the Quranic law). So you pick up this cruel event (obviously happened in 2002) and to tell Muslims how they treat women? Either you goggled along to find something (this is a cynic behaviour), where Muslim women are oppressed and found this incident which happened years ago (there you go: either you don’t care that this has nothing to do with the mainstream, or you are satisfied finding an incident like this). If I’d Google around about woman abuse right now, I’d find thousands of incidents happening in all around the world, especially in the western countries. Nobody can tell me gang raping a woman has something to do with any RELIGION. This is a very unlawful act which has nothing to do with Muslims or Pakistan.

Again if women have no permission of driving cars in Saudi Arabia, is this not an argument of how women have fewer rights in Islam. Saudi Arabia is not the only Muslim country in the world. So when 95 per cent of the Muslim countries do allow women to drive cars (chevys), you can not defame Islam (being unfair towards women) , just because of 5 percent (or less) don’t.

“(Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)”

Being witness as a female in an Islamic court? This is a deep issue which only Muslims would understand. Muslim women generally are not feeling oppressed by this restriction, or have inferiority complexes because they have to be two at least so that the judge takes them serious. For example: woman are more emphatic than man, so when somebody is sued and is possibly going to get executed because of this crime, a woman witness may witness for his release.


May God direct you to the right path,


Salim


selam

[NewMuslim]

Salam,
I have a question for you: In the Bible verses below, what was Jesus claiming when he said "Son of Man?"

Luke 5:17-25
One day as he [Jesus] was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick.
Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus.
When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."
Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.
(NIV)

Thanks

:wasalam:
Thank you for answering my questions.

There are two answers to your question:

1) The Bible is corrupted, and that could've been added in.

2) Who's to say he was claiming anything? He could've been saying "God has granted me power to forgive". Son of Man could be taken literally, which I believe the Bible is to be taken.

[msameer]

Sheesh. ok, i hope nobody minds what I say now, becuz it is truly my opinion.

MEN AND WOMEN WILL NEVER BE EQUAL!!

ok, that being said, I'll prove it. Allah didn't create a man to have children, or have periods. Both men and women have different body structures, modern phsycology says they have diff. ways of learning and mind sets. SO why would you try to make what is not equal equal?

True Islam creates JUSTICE and that's more than EQUALITY (which can never truly be achieved) can do.

my opinion.

Well, When someone says that in Islam Women and Men are equal, What they mean is that they are equal in the eyes of God! They will be equally judged on their actions, Punished for their sins, and rewarded for their good deeds.

In Islam, Man is not better or superior to a woman in any way. Yes they are different, But being different does not mean that you are not equal.

[joepierre]

Hello everybody


[B]Here are some thoughts concerning the questions of Joe Pierre,

The situation in Afghanistan- one of the poorest countries in the world, is very bad.


Taliban indeed is not the perfect pattern for a Muslim system, but to say that women in Afghanistan are completely prevented of any education is wrong. They seek Islamic education at home, like reading the Quran



Pretty hard to read the Quran at home if you can't read, isn't it.



The weakest superficial argument one could ever bring is: a gang rape sanction in a Muslim country.

” whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)”

This is not just weak, this is ugly and disgusting. Such a sanction is not Islamic; it is not even a sanction it’s a heavy crime and has nothing to do with any law codec of Sharia (the Quranic law). So you pick up this cruel event (obviously happened in 2002) and to tell Muslims how they treat women? Either you goggled along to find something (this is a cynic behaviour), where Muslim women are oppressed and found this incident which happened years ago (there you go: either you don’t care that this has nothing to do with the mainstream, or you are satisfied finding an incident like this). If I’d Google around about woman abuse right now, I’d find thousands of incidents happening in all around the world, especially in the western countries. Nobody can tell me gang raping a woman has something to do with any RELIGION. This is a very unlawful act which has nothing to do with Muslims or Pakistan.

selam


What's ugly and disgusting is how the woman was treated, not the fact that I mention it.
I agree the sanction is not Islamic and was terrible, but it was supported by the local Mullahs who condemn the woman to this day. Therefore it does have to do with Muslims - Muslims who we may agree are wrong.

Remember the MMA (an Islamist Political party in Pakistan) steadfastly opposed the recent law changes about rape in Pakistan. (see earlier post).

I am not googling anything here and I have no interest in muck raking. This part of the world is very close to my heart. I have seen enough of the world to know that life is really really tough for alot of people in all parts of the world, and I am doing what I can to make things better. Part of improving the quality of life for people is to honestly recognise who has contributed to the freedoms and privalidges we enjoy. Islam, of course, has done a lot, but to say that every single good thing in life has come from the hand of Muslims is one eyed.

Thanks,
JP

[samiha]

Well, When someone says that in Islam Women and Men are equal, What they mean is that they are equal in the eyes of God! They will be equally judged on their actions, Punished for their sins, and rewarded for their good deeds.

In Islam, Man is not better or superior to a woman in any way. Yes they are different, But being different does not mean that you are not equal.

:salam2:

lol, I didn't mean it in that sence. I know that reward wise men and women will be judged equally. I meant only that some people who want to smoosh men and women together on all fields and call it equality shouldn't do so. We are shown justice in our lives because of Islam, but that justice doesn't mean that men and women are going to be the same. Men have rights as well as women, but those rights are not going to be the same, they change because we as humans are diff. you can't call a man a woman and call it equal, cuz' a man's not a woman and can never be, we are diff. but beautiful in our differentness.

I hope that made sence. Many times I'm not good at totally expressing myself, but I try, I hope you forgive any shortcomings I may have. :shymuslima1:

:wasalam:

[mistrx]

Pretty hard to read the Quran at home if you can't read, isn't it.




What's ugly and disgusting is how the woman was treated, not the fact that I mention it.
I agree the sanction is not Islamic and was terrible, but it was supported by the local Mullahs who condemn the woman to this day. Therefore it does have to do with Muslims - Muslims who we may agree are wrong.

Remember the MMA (an Islamist Political party in Pakistan) steadfastly opposed the recent law changes about rape in Pakistan. (see earlier post).

I am not googling anything here and I have no interest in muck raking. This part of the world is very close to my heart. I have seen enough of the world to know that life is really really tough for alot of people in all parts of the world, and I am doing what I can to make things better. Part of improving the quality of life for people is to honestly recognise who has contributed to the freedoms and privalidges we enjoy. Islam, of course, has done a lot, but to say that every single good thing in life has come from the hand of Muslims is one eyed.

Thanks,
JP

salut Pierre,

I am happy that you are not somebody who drops in here with all his prejudices trying to tell muslims how guilty they are of being Muslim.

At first I thought that. :). But as you said that this world is very close to your heart I can understand that you are interested to learn something about it.

I think that you have questions, which I may not capable of answering them, maybe some other brother or sister here will answer them for you.

I can tell you that my religion is perfect. But this does not mean that we as human beings are perfect. Think of all the terrorists acting in the name of Islam, when it has nothing to do with islam what they're doing (I think you know that as much as me). There are lots of incidents (also today), where people act false "in the name of a RELIGION" and you know that it doesn't matter which religion it is.

there was an era where people behaved perfectly according their religion. That was in the time of our beloved Muhammed (pbuh). I suggest you to read something about this.

I am sorry about being rude in the last post.

selam,

salim

[omar162]

[QUOTE=joepierre;18643]Omar, please don't get mad, we are all friends here right?
My use of the Bible was not to make any logical statements about holocaust or slavery or anything else. I was only referring to it as an early example of women owning property in a non-muslim context. that is all. Any assertion that I support any of the events you mentioned is dishonest of you.
(on a side note, I don't think the Bible does either. If it does, pls show me chapter and verse)

I notice you have also been dishonest with the quote from our sister. She talked about needing her husband to sign the back of a bank cheque. You turned that into a statement that 'women in Britain could not own property' till the 1960s which is not true. It is not good enough to say 'everyone knows'. I asked a western lawyer who studied english law. Here is a reference to Maryland state law (which though is American would have resembled English law at the time).

Hello Again Joe,

First of all, I did not bring the Bible into this discussion; you did, Joe. Secondly, I did not say the Bible supported the Crusaders, Inquisition, slavery, holocaust, and so on: In fact, I was saying the Bible DID NOT support these acts, yet Christians who professed that they're a followers of Jesus were committing these horrible injustices. What I think is dishonest of you is insinuating that Women, either single or married, were given their rights in the West easily. The fact is, women fought for all of their rights in the West - even died for their cause in the process - Emily Davison is one example in Britain. Go study that. Thirdly, you seem to jump from one country's laws to another to support your claims. Last week it was Britain's law. Now your saying the American law was the same as the British? Your right BEFORE 1776, so why would you assume Britain and America had a similar laws after 1776? Joe my friend, I'm a student of history, so please don't bring up all these Grandeur claims about Western Civilization and how great they are. If you want to keep kissing up to Western Civilization, go ahead, but please spare us your incoherent argument and weak judgment.

[joepierre]

Thankyou Mistrix, I hope you have a nice day.

[Mohamed's wife]

:salam2:
Is this Islamic Poetry? or Islamic discussion? Will you pls, Joe, to continue this discussion in Islamic discussion? This is about poetry. Anyway the poetry is beautiful.:hijabi: :ma: thank you for posting the poem.
:wasalam:

[Miss.R]

well but not all muslim women r like tht
here in my country girls wearing niqab n hijab r illeterate, they have no manners, they roam with boys even tho' they wear a HIJAB ! they exhibit indecent n immoral behaviour in public wen with other boys!!, some of dem jus dnt have any knoledge n r illeterate, they do any thing n everything in niqab because no 1 can see dem:girl3:
almost 70% women wearing hijab here r like this which gives a wrong impression of the garment as a whole n the relegion itself!!1
i really feel very sad on looking at this diplorable condition of women in my country...n trying my lvl best at grass root lvl 2 improve it

[usman321]

:salam2:

I am a Muslim Woman

I am a Muslim woman
Feel free to ask me why
When I walk,
I walk with dignity
When I speak,
I do not lie

I am a Muslim woman
Not all of me you'll see
But what you should appreciate
Is that the choice I make is free

I'm not plagued with depression
I'm neither cheated nor abused
I don't envy other women
And I'm certainly not confused

Note, I speak perfect English
Et un petit peu de Francais aussi
I'm majoring in Linguistics
So you need not speak slowly

I run my own small business
Every cent I earn is mine
I drive my Chevy to school & work
And no, that's not a crime!

You often stare as I walk by
You don't understand my veil
But peace and power I have found
As I am equal to any male!

I am a Muslim woman
So please don't pity me
For God has guided me to truth
And now I'm finally free!

© Copyright 2006 Jenn Zaghloul


SubhanAllah. brilliant poem. :]


:wasalam:

[houry]

:salam2:

:ma:

very nice poem sister i love it 2 much

jazaky allah khayran

keep it up

[newusman]

Hi Newusman,

Lastly, you haven't yet answered this

"Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)"
As far as I know, the recent law change in Pakistan does not change this. Please let me know if it has.
Thanks


EQUALITY OF WITNESSES :arabi1: :hijabi:


Question:

Why are two witnesses who are women, equivalent to only one witness who is a man ?

Answer:

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:

"Oh! ye who believe!
When ye deal with each other,
in transactions involving future obligation
in a fixed period of time
reduce them to writing and get two witnesses
out of your own men and if there are not two men,
then a man and two women, such as ye choose,
for witnesses so that if one of them errs
the other can remind her."
[Al-Qur’an 2:282]

This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman.

While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Oh you who believe!
When death approaches any of you,
(take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."
[Al-Qur’an 5:106]

two just persons of your own (brotherhood)
or other from outside if you are journeying
through the earth and the chance of death befalls you."
[Al-Qur’an 65:2]

Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq.

"Four witnesses are required
in case of charge against chaste women,
[Al-Qur’an 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:

"And those who launch a charge
against their spouses, and have (in support)
no evidence but their own -
their solitary evidence can be received."
[Al-Qur’an 24:6]

Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness

Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.

Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

[yusuf]

Hey Joe Check These Links !!


This is The First Link
http://jamaat.net/muhinbible/muhinbible.html

This is the second Link

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1837525168870785121&q=ahmed+deedat

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MUHAMMAD (PEACE BE UPON HIM) THE PROPHET OF ISLAM
A lecture by Ahmed Deedat

[newusman]

Salam.
All of the brothers and sisters who have been posting replies to Joepierre's questions, keep in mind that his questions are not based on any of the teaching of Islam but instead they talk about muslim majority countires and on off incidents in those countries. This is a really common way to indirectly attack Islam by talking about muslim majority countries or any incident over there (and non of the muslim majority countires have proper sharia law), and one of the reasons this is done is because they cant find anything to say against the Quran and Sunnah.Also remember that if they say that they are not attacking Islam then they really wouldnt go to the extent of saying something as absurd as this,

Finally, will you acknowledge that the freedoms and rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home. You are welcome to them. They are for all people.


Just be aware as these poeple tend to lead the argument into circular reasoning. If they want to talk about freedom then there is alot to talk about the ongoing deprivation of freedom in Holland, France, Turkey, USA,UK, etc... Why choose those govts that are long gone????
Think about it...

Just a reminder to my self and the ummah.

002.135
YUSUFALI: They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

Surah 2 Al Baqarah Part1
41. And believe in what I have sent down (this Quran), confirming that which is with you, [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with my verses [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone.
42. And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth [i.e. Muhammad (saw) is Allah's Messenger and his qualities are written in your Scriptures, the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) while you know (the truth)[1].

[1] (V 2:42) Volume 3, Book 34, Number 335:
Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, "Tell me about the description of Allah's Apostle which is mentioned in Torah (i.e. Old Testament.") He replied, 'Yes. By Allah, he is described in Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran as follows:

"O Prophet ! We have sent you as a witness (for Allah's True religion) And a giver of glad tidings (to the faithful believers), And a warner (to the unbelievers) And guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My messenger (i.e. Apostle). I have named you "Al-Mutawakkil" (who depends upon Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh Nor a noise-maker in the markets And you do not do evil to those Who do evil to you, but you deal With them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the Prophet) Die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say:'La ilaha illallah,' (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), by which 'blind eyes, deaf ears and closed hearts' will be opened."

If there are any typos then plz do inform me.
:jazaak:

[omar162]

newusman;20797]Salam.
All of the brothers and sisters who have been posting replies to Joepierre's questions, keep in mind that his questions are not based on any of the teaching of Islam but instead they talk about muslim majority countires and on off incidents in those countries. This is a really common way to indirectly attack Islam by talking about muslim majority countries or any incident over there (and non of the muslim majority countires have proper sharia law), and one of the reasons this is done is because they cant find anything to say against the Quran and Sunnah.Also remember that if they say that they are not attacking Islam then they really wouldnt go to the extent of saying something as absurd as this,


Just be aware as these poeple tend to lead the argument into circular reasoning. If they want to talk about freedom then there is alot to talk about the ongoing deprivation of freedom in Holland, France, Turkey, USA,UK, etc... Why choose those govts that are long gone????
Think about it...



Salaam,

Br. Newusman, you make an excellent point. I agree with you what Joe Piere has been trying to do all along is what you've just unmasked. It's quite pathetic:salah:

[Tahar]

This is one website I have hoped we won't need to keep defending ourselves or justifying our beliefs to people like Joepierre, who are apparently waging their own dirty Jihad of misinformation and distortion against Islam.

We are tired of your hypocrisy rapped as democracy and human-rights. I don't see anything joyful happening in Afghanistan or Iraq. And Islam remains the best alternative to the brutal and corrupt capitalist ideology. Do us a favor, and go away. Your idiotic arguments are useless in here.

[Signs]

Nice Poem Sister.

You are a free woman - Living in America I presume?
Who gave you that freedom and what are you going to do with that freedom? (these are rhetorical).

Will you help your sisters who do not have opportunity to go to college and major in anything? those who are prevented from going to school in the name of Islam? (Afghanistan).
Will you help those sisters who are cheated and abused? - whose punishment for talking to a 12 year old boy is sanctioned gang rape? (Pakistan 2002)
Will you help those women who are not allowed by law to drive their chevys to achieve such a priviledge? (Saudi Arabia)
Will you fight for the rights of women who are not even allowed to work - let alone run their own business? (Afghanistan during Taliban rule, and again now in many parts of the country)
Will you help women acheive equality to any male where they are not considered equal? (Pakistan, 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses in court)

Finally, will you acknowledge that the freedoms and rights you mention and take for granted were fought for - mostly by Christians - to bring them to the country you call home. You are welcome to them. They are for all people.

Food for thought I hope.

Thanks.
JP
my dear friend r u muslim or christian regardless of who u r Mankind cannot fight to give you FREEDOM. Only ALLAH {GOD} almighty have given you that which you were born with, mankind is the one who steals or bar's your freedom, other than that everyone is FREE to do what they want in any country on the face of the god's green earth no christian can give you freedom in whatever war they fought is for the countys OWN gain.

[raul008]

Hello Sister very Very Nice Poem!!! Thanx For Sharing The poem!!

[zhivago11]

Good poem!

[allmuslimsrequal]

May peace be with you. A very strong poem, and to the point. I find sometimes that my only opressors are the people who point, stare and ridicule me for wearing my head scarf. I am happy to be a Muslim woman, and I thank Allah for guiding me to Islam. Thanku for your poem.