Is living in a non-muslim country haraam?? [Archive] - TTI

View Full Version : Is living in a non-muslim country haraam??

seekingtruth2

10-04-2006, 01:15 PM

as salaamu alaykm wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,
I just read what was asked about is honeymoon haraam and I have thoughts and questions that take this to another level. If it is haraam to visit a non-muslim country then that would then make it haraam for me to continue to live in a non-muslim country. I thought that as long as the teachings of the qu'ran and sunnah are followed that is all that matters. I am a new muslim who lives in a non-muslim country and I have to say that yes... for me it is hard to live in this country as a muslim but that is more because I am seen as a traitor for being a white woman who has reverted to islam not because it is hard for me to follow my beliefs. I wear hijab, and dress very modestly and I do not let those around me influence me in anyway. In my heart i wish to marry a man from a muslim nation and go there to live but sometimes I think thats me just wanting to run away from the prejudices I face in my own country. I have lost freinds and family due to my choice of following islam but I keep telling myself that I must be strong and stay here if only to teach others the truth of islam because people here only know what is said in the media and I feel someone must stand and counteract these lies being told. However if my staying here is haraam then I must make the choice to leave. Can someone please tell me where to look for these answers???? I must know!!! If staying here is haraam then I must start amking plans! please someone who is knowledgable respond to this immediatley!!!!!
jazak allah khair
al salam waleikum

Imad

10-04-2006, 02:25 PM

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

May Allah help us. I ask Allah subhanahu wata3ala to help me, you and other muslims and muslimas. We have to make a plan and Allah will help us. Many of us don't have firm knowledge to counteract the lies. We want also to have kids, so how do you think the kids will grow in non-muslim countries. Allah knows, but Allah says also before counteracting the lies, we have to protect ourselfs and our kids from hell fire. Allah says: Ya ayoha ladien amanoe Qoe anfusakum wahlikoem naren.... " the meaning : " O you who believe protect yourselfs and your family from Hell fire ...." This is the first thing that we have to do. Are you strong to do that? I don't know if I'am strong to do that. We will be asked about our kids. So we have to think deeply and don't think we will stay in these countries for ever. So you have to make plans and Insha Allah in the feature we will leave these countries.
Many scholars have the opinion that we have to leave from non-muslim countries.

Fi amanillah.

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,

Imad

mohd_osman

10-04-2006, 02:57 PM

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546636

Karima

10-04-2006, 03:32 PM

Asalamualikum,

What you said is so true, but remember the days before your eyes were opened to Islam. Now, you can be a bridge for those who you think are against you. They are normal for thinking about your change of life.

I have lost freinds and family due to my choice of following islam but I keep telling myself that I must be strong and stay here if only to teach others the truth of islam because people here only know what is said in the media and I feel someone must stand and counteract these lies being told.

Perhaps, your friends were not sincere in the first place....for what is best for you. I am sure they want to 'look' out after you, and not be taken in by the media's view of Islam 'taking over the world'.
There are many of us who face this daily. When I can, I speak to my friends about what I have learned about Islam. They do not have to agree with me. When most of us have been brought up believing one way, it is difficult to 'change' thoughts of this.

This is why I feel that Allah called me to understand the truth...and you too!
So do not hide your 'candle' of truth. Continue living strong for Allah in all things, and live your life on Allah's earth. There is no where to 'hide' from the daggars of lies....just remain trusting in Allah.

Do I like going where all people are not aware of Islam, except from the media? Of course not. However, in my actions, I am different than before, and in my way of modest dress. I can share with others what I have learned...and not to avoid my friends. I have changed my values greatly, because of guidance from Allah through various muslim sites, such as this one.

Stay here with us, and should Allah wish for you to live in a different country, then inshaAllah.

Sallam

Mrmuslim

10-04-2006, 03:53 PM

as salaamu alaykm wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,
immediatley!!!!!
jazak allah khair
al salam waleikum

Salaam alikom I am not a Knowledgable person but

Ok If you going to leave your country where you will go? Arabic Country ..? show me one Arabic Country following the Shariah? ok lets forget about Shariah..what about Justice? mmm lets forget about Justice... What about freedome of speech? what about discrimination..? Yes all this in Muslim countries now days.
With all of the respect to the people, who says living in Non-Muslim country is haram etc. why not they tell the leaders first to be rule with justice and follow the shairah then tell the Muslim who lives in the west to come to Muslim country.

Muslim lived side by side in Spain and it wasnt at first a Muslim country and they lived in peacefull way.
I know its hard to live now days in Non Muslim countries but its harder to live in Muslim country too. In my opinion people or Muslim follow more Islamic rules in the west than in the Muslim countries because they want to be close to thier religion.

Quote from the link posted by mohd_osman
If a Muslim were to fear that he or she will lose his/her faith by living in the West, then he or she must go back and settle down where he or she can protect his or her religion.
while living in the West, they should have a sense of mission to share the message of mercy inherent in Islam with the people around them. By doing so, we are fulfilling the prophecy of our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said, "This mission of Islam is going to reach every nook and corner of the world."

wa salaam alikom

seekingtruth2

10-04-2006, 04:19 PM

Mrmuslim

10-04-2006, 04:27 PM

salaam,
jazak allah khair,
I appriciate this site.... it is a very good one and answered my questions well.......however would anyone like to get technical with what is actually a life endangering situation...is people just threatening to kill you count??? or do people actually have to try to kill you???? just curious.......thanks jazak allah khair
al salaam waleikum

salaam alikom

Sister if the situation is that seriouse then you need to contact the Police or the authority if you are in U.S I would advise you to contact the police and CAIR The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) is a nonprofit 501(c)(4), grassroots civil rights and advocacy group.
BUT YOU NEED TO CONTACT THE POLICE.
http://www.cair.com/

contact depends on your city
http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=chapters

contact the main office
Council on American-Islamic Relations
453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.
Washington, DC 20003

Tel: 202-488-8787
Fax: 202-488-0833

seekingtruth2

10-04-2006, 04:40 PM

salaam,
no for the most part my situation isnt that serious... certainly not one for the police... im from a rural midwestern farming community where ignorance abounds!..lol... i was very much hated for converting to islam in a place where every practically every family has a son in the war. However, I have moved to the city where I can live more peacefully and be near a mosque... I just dont much like the city....make sense? I'm really ok....please dont worry....
salaam

ibnAbdullah87

10-04-2006, 05:01 PM

I hope this will be of benefit

The Meaning and Ruling of Hijrah

AUTHOR: Shaikh Ahmad bin Yahyaa An-Najmee
SOURCE: His explanation of Thalathat-ul-Usool
PRODUCED BY: Al-Ibaanah.com

In his explanation of “The Three Fundamental Principles” of Imaam Muhammad bin ‘Abdil-Wahhaab, Shaikh Ahmad An-Najmee said:

The definition of Hijrah is: To abandon the Land of Shirk, i.e. to leave it, and to come to a Land of Islaam. This is since the word Hijrah is derived from the root hajr which means to abandon or leave off. The Muslims were commanded to abandon the Land of Shirk and go to the Land of Islaam. The ruling on Hijrah is that it is obligatory for the one who is able to do it. This is why Allaah informs us that there will be a group of people whom the angels will take in death while they are wronging themselves due to their lack of migrating and their preferring the Land of Shirk.

Allaah says: “Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (by not performing Hijrah), they (angels) will say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They will reply: ‘We were weak and oppressed in the earth.’ They (angels) will say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to migrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell – what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children – who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way. These are the ones whom Allaah is (most) likely to forgive, and Allaah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Most Forgiving.” [Surah An-Nisaa: 97-99]

And He says: “O My servants who believe (in Me)! Verily, My earth is spacious so to Me alone, perform your worship.” [Surah Al-‘Ankaboot: 56]

Al-Baghawee, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “The reason for the revelation of this ayah was due to some Muslims who had resided in Makkah and did not migrate (to Madeenah). Allaah called out to them using the title of Eemaan (for them).”

We derive from these verses that Hijrah is obligatory on the one who is able to do it, which requires him to move from a Land of Disbelief to a Land of Islaam. This is since in a Land of Disbelief, the believer is exposed to harm and the government will be against him as opposed to in his favor. Even though he may be safe from harm, he will still not be safe from having to seek judgement in laws that are not from Allaah’s Legislation, such as man-made laws, which they use to govern the people.

However, Hijrah in our present time must only be done with the permission from the country that one is migrating to. So if the country refuses to accept this emigrant, then he has no ability or power in the matter except by Allaah’s leave.

Things used to be easy (in the old days). But as for today, there is difficulty in Hijrah either from the side of the country that one is migrating from or from the side of the country that one is migrating to. So whoever is able to make Hijrah, with ease and no difficulty, to a Land of Islaam, then such a person is obligated to do that. Furthermore, some of the Muslim countries today apply strict measures against those who adhere to the Religion of Allaah in everything that he brings and leaves behind.

In summary, any Muslim that lives in a country, which the disbelievers rule based on man-made laws, must migrate from it if he is easily able to do it. And if it is not easy for him, then according to what is apparent (from the texts), he is excused due to Allaah’s saying: “Allaah does not burden a soul with more than it can handle.” [Surah Al-Baqarah: 286]. And with Allaah lies the success.

Published: February 16, 2006

ibnAbdullah87

10-04-2006, 05:05 PM

Here is another artical about Hijrah

Some Statements of the Scholars regarding Hijrah (Part 1)

AUTHOR: Husayn Al-'Awaayishah
SOURCE: His book Al-Fasl-ul-Mubeen fee Mas'alat-il-Hijrah wa Mufaaraqat-il-Mushrikeen
PRODUCED BY: Al-Ibaanah.com

Chapter Six: Some Statements of the Scholars regarding Hijrah (Part 1)

Know, may Allaah have mercy on me and you, that there are many statements of the scholars [1] regarding the obligation of Hijrah on the person that:

1. Has the ability to make Hijrah,
2. Fears from fitnah, and
3. Does not have the ability to openly manifest his Religion amongst the disbelievers.

I will only mention those statements that I am able to. And I will also mention what I can from the statements of those (scholars) who viewed that Hijrah was recommended for the individual that:

1. Has the ability to make Hijrah, but
2. Also has the ability to openly manifest his Religion amongst the disbelievers.

The opinion of the majority of the scholars concerning Hijrah:

The great scholar Abu At-Tayyib Sideeq Ibn Hasan Ibn ‘Alee Al-Husaynee Al-Qinnawjee Al-Bukhaaree said in his book Al-‘Ibrah: "Al-Mawza'ee [2] said in Tayseer-ul-Bayaan [3]: ‘The majority of the scholars have stated that performing Hijrah (migrating) from the Lands of Harb to the Lands of Islaam is obligatory. This ruling applies to a person that is not able to openly manifest his Religion. It is not obligatory on a person that is able to do that (manifest his Religion), whether through his relatives or through the leadership, just as it was permitted for 'Abbaas (radyAllaahu ‘anhu) [to remain in Makkah]. However, performing Hijrah is much more preferable. This is how the ruling concerning Hijrah is in our time - it is obligatory on an individual that does not have the ability to manifest his Religion outwardly, and it is recommended for someone that does have the ability to manifest it outwardly. Innovations take the same status as disbelief, with regard to the obligation or recommendation of performing Hijrah. As for the remaining types of sins, then it is recommended that one perform Hijrah from them. In spite of this, Hijrah is not obligatory upon him for that purpose solely, unless the unlawful threatens to overtake him, for indeed seeking the lawful (halaal) is an obligation." [4]

Imaam As-Sana’aanee said in Subul-us-Salaam after mentioning the hadeeth: "I am free from every Muslim that establishes his residence amongst the disbelievers": "The hadeeth is evidence for the obligation of making Hijrah (migration) from all of the lands of the disbelievers, and not just from Makkah. This is the opinion of the majority of the scholars."[5]

Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdillaah, better known as "Ibn Al-‘Arabee" (d. 543H), said concerning Hijrah [6]: "It is divided into six categories:

The First: Leaving from the Land of War (Daar-ul-Harb) to the Land of Islaam.

The Second: Leaving from the land of innovation. Ibn Al-Qaasim said: ‘I heard Imaam Maalik say: ‘It is not permissible for anyone to reside in a land where the Salaf (predecessors) are reviled.’ This is correct, for if one is not able to change an evil, he must withdraw himself away from it. Allaah says: ‘And when you see those who engage in false conversation concerning Our Ayaat, by mocking at them, then stay away from them until they change their speech to another topic. But if the Devil causes you to forget, then after remembering, do not sit in the company of those who are wrong-doers.' [Surat-ul-Ana’aam: 68] I once said to my Shaikh, the ascetic Abu Bakr Al-Fahree: ‘Why don’t you migrate from this land of Egypt to your own country?’ So he responded: ‘I do not like to enter a land in which ignorance is vastly predominant and intelligence is minimal.’ I said: ‘Then go to Makkah and establish residence in the proximity of Allaah and His Messenger, for I have come to learn that leaving this country is obligatory due to the innovation and haraam that exists in it.' He then said: 'There is much guidance and direction for the creatures, that lies in my hands, in this land, as well as teaching Tawheed, restraining others from deviant beliefs and supplicating to Allaah, the Most High.’

The Third: Leaving from the land in which the unlawful is dominant and widespread, for indeed seeking the lawful is obligatory upon every Muslim.

The Fourth: Fleeing from those things that are harmful to one's body. This is a bounty from Allaah in which He has given us an allowance. So if a person fears danger for himself by staying in a place, then Allaah has permitted him to leave from it and to flee for his life’s sake, in order to free himself from that danger. [7]

The Fifth: Leaving for fear of getting sick in a land that has an unhealthy atmosphere and coming out from there to a land in which one can walk freely outside (without getting sick).

The Sixth: Fleeing from a land out of fear of harm being inflicted to one's wealth. Indeed, the sacredness of a Muslim's property is like the sacredness of his blood. And his family is equal in that respect, if not greater." [8]

Ibn Qudaamah Al-Maqdisee (d. 630H) said: "People are divided into three categories with regard to Hijrah:

The First: This includes the one who it is obligatory upon and he is the one that has the ability to do it (i.e. perform Hijrah) while not being able to manifest his Religion in that land. Nor is he able to establish the obligatory requisites of his Religion due to his position of being in the midst of the disbelievers. This type of individual is obligated to make Hijrah due to Allaah statement: 'Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves, they (angels) say (to them): In what (condition) were you? They will reply: We were weak and oppressed on the earth. They (angels) will say: Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to migrate therein? Such men will find their abode in Hell - what an evil destination!' [Surat-un-Nisaa: 97] The severe threat that is mentioned in this ayah is proof for the obligation (of Hijrah). Also, establishing the obligatory aspects of one's Religion is an obligation in itself, for the one who is able to do that. And Hijrah is from the prerequisites of the obligatory and it is that which makes it complete. And whatever is essential for the completion of an obligation becomes obligatory in itself.

The Second: The one who is not obligated to make Hijrah. This is the one who has difficulty in doing it, whether it is due to a sickness, his being forced to keep his residence, or a weakness, as is the case with women, children and their likes. Hijrah is not obligatory upon this type of individual due to Allaah's statement: 'Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way. These are the ones whom Allaah is (most) likely to forgive, and Allaah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Most Forgiving.' [9] And it is not described as being recommended because the one in this category is not able to do it.

The Third: The one who is recommended to do it, even though it is not obligatory upon him. He is the one who has the ability to make Hijrah, but yet he is also able to outwardly manifest his Religion while establishing his residence in the Land of Kufr. Thus it is recommended for him (to migrate to the believers), so that he may fight in Jihaad alongside them, add to the Muslim population and so that he can assist and support them. It is also so that he can free himself from adding to the population of the disbelievers, interacting with them and seeing the evil that occurs amongst them. Hijrah is not obligatory on him due to his ability to establish the obligatory aspects of his Religion, without having to migrate. This was the case with Al-'Abbaas (radyAllaahu ‘anhu), the paternal uncle of the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), who used to reside in Makkah while he was Muslim." [10]

Imaam Majd-ud-Deen Abul-Barakaat (d. 652H) said in his book Al-Muharrir:
"Migrating from the Land of War (Daar-ul-Harb) is recommended for a person that is able to openly display his Religion while residing in a Land of Kufr." [11]

Imaam Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Al-Ansaaree Al-Qurtubee (d. 671H) said after quoting Allaah's saying: "And whosoever migrates in the Way of Allaah, he will find many dwelling places and plenty (of sustenance) to live by": "Maalik said: 'This ayah indicates that it is not (permissible) for anyone to reside in a land in which the Salaf are reviled and abused, without due right.'" [12]

Imaam An-Nawawee (d. 676H) said:
"If it is the case that a Muslim is weak whilst residing in a Land of Kufr and he is not able to outwardly display and exercise his Religion, then it is forbidden for him to take residence there. In fact, he is obligated to migrate to a Land of Islaam. And if he is not able to do so, then he is excused until he attains the ability." [13]

The following occurs in the Majmoo'-ul-Fataawaa of Shaikh-ul-Islaam Ibn Taimiyyah (d. 728H), where he (rahimahullaah) was asked on the land of Maarideen:

“Is this a land at war with the Muslims or at peace with them? And is it obligatory for the Muslim who resides there to perform Hijrah from there to a Muslim land or not? If he is obligated to perform Hijrah, yet doesn’t migrate, and he assists the enemies of the Muslims with his body and his wealth, is he sinning by doing that? Is a person that accuses him of hypocrisy and who reviles him sinning or not?"

So he (rahimahullaah) responded:
"All praise is due to Allaah. The blood and property of a Muslim are forbidden (i.e. for other Muslims to abuse), even if they reside in Maarideen or elsewhere. Likewise supporting those who are outside the fold of the Religion of Islaam is forbidden, regardless if they are inhabitants of Maarideen or elsewhere. As for the one who resides there, if he has difficulty in establishing the application of his Religion, then he is obligated to make Hijrah from there. And if it is not this way, then it is recommended for him and not obligatory." [14]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr (d. 852H) (rahimahullaah) said in Al-Fath commenting on the hadeeth: "There is no (more) Hijrah after the Conquest": "So whoever resides there, [15] from the Muslims, then he falls into either one of the following three categories:

The First: He has the ability to migrate from there. And he cannot openly display his Religion nor can he perform his obligatory duties. So making Hijrah from this land is obligatory on him.

The Second: He is able to make Hijrah, however, he also has the ability to openly demonstrate his Religion and fulfill his religious obligations. In this case, it is recommended for him to make Hijrah, since he will be increasing the number of Muslims in the land he migrates to, he will be assisting them and he will be able to make Jihaad against the disbelievers. Likewise, he will be safe from the betrayal and treachery of the disbelievers and he will free himself from seeing the evil that occurs amongst them.

The Third: He doesn't have the ability to perform Hijrah. Thus he has an excuse for not migrating. Examples of this category are people such as those who are imprisoned or sick or other than that. In this case, his residing in that land is permitted. And if he encourages and forces himself to leave from there, then he will be rewarded." [16]

The great scholar 'Alaa-ud-Deen Abul-Hasan 'Alee Ibn Sulaymaan Al-Mardaawee [17] (d. 885H) said: "Hijrah is obligatory on the one who is not able to openly display his Religion in a Land of War (Daar-ul-Harb), without any disagreement. A Land of War (Daar-ul-Harb) is any land in which the laws of the disbelievers are superior. Some scholars, such as the author of Ar-Ri'aayatain and Al-Hawaayatain, have added to this by stating that it includes any land that has an oppressive ruler governing it or any land of innovation (bid'ah), such as that which contains Raafidah and Mu'tazilah ideologies. I say that this is what is most correct. And this (obligation) is restricted to only the one who has the ability to do it (i.e. perform Hijrah). So if he is able to do it, then Hijrah is obligatory on him." [18]

Then he (rahimahullaah) said commenting on the phrase: "It is (only) recommended for the one who has the ability to do it (i.e. openly manifest and practice his Religion in that land)":

"This is the opinion that a majority of the scholars adhere to and it is that which has been absolutely asserted in the books Al-Hidaayah, Al-Mudhahhab, Masbook-udh-Dhahab, Al-Khulaasah, Al-Mughnee, Ash-Sharh, Al-Muharrir, Al-Wajeez and others. And it has been mentioned in the introduction of Al-Furoo' and other books. However Ibn Al-Jawzee said that it was obligatory on him." [19]

The great scholar Al-Manaawee (d. 1031H) mentioned the words of Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr, while agreeing with them and he did not mention any statements that opposed or rejected them. [20]

Imaam Mar'ee Ibn Yoosuf Al-Karmee (d. 1033H) said in Daleel-ut-Taalib:
"Hijrah is obligatory upon every individual that is not able to openly display his Religion in a place in which the laws of the disbelievers or misguided innovations are superior. But if he is able to openly practice and exercise his Religion, then it is (just) recommended." [21]

The great scholar Mansoor Ibn Yoonus Ibn Idrees Al-Buhwatee (d. 1051H), the legal jurist of the Hanbalee school of thought in his time, said: "Hijrah is obligatory on a person that is not capable of openly demonstrating and exercising his Religion in an area in which the laws of disbelief are dominant and superior, or in which the laws of misguided innovations are dominant, such as that of the Mu'tazilah. Hijrah, meaning leaving from that land to go to the land of Islaam and the Sunnah, must be performed. This is due to Allaah's statement: 'Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves, they (angels) will say: In what (condition) were you? They will reply: We were weak and oppressed in the earth. They (angels) will say: Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to migrate therein?'

Also the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said, 'I am free from every Muslim that establishes his residence amongst the disbelievers. Their two (camp) fires should not be visible to one another.' Abu Dawood and At-Tirmidhee reported this hadeeth and its understanding is: that one should not remain in an area filled with evil sinning people. Hijrah is recommended for the one who has the ability to openly display and exercise his Religion, while in the regions of a disbelieving land. This (recommendation) is in order that he may extract himself from adding numbers to the ranks of the disbelievers and so that he can be able to make Jihaad against them." [22]

The great scholar Imaam Ash-Shawkaanee (d. 1255H) said:
"If the main point of benefit (in this hadeeth) is the obligation of migrating from the Land of Kufr, then (know that) this obligation is not limited to just the Land of Kufr. Rather, this obligation of Hijrah is an instituted legislation and an established Sunnah. It is to be implemented when evil is openly proclaimed, when there is a lack of ability to stand up to enjoin the good and forbid the evil, and when there is a lack of people that are able to take away what is in the hands of those who consume the things that Allaah has made unlawful.

So it is an obligation upon the believer to save his soul and flee for the sake of his Religion, if he has the ability to do that. And he must look for a land that is void of the open manifestation of disobedience to Allaah, and (a land) that will result in no evil befalling him. If he cannot find such a place, then he is not able to do any better than what he is able to do. He must, however, enjoin the good and forbid the evil with his hand. And if he cannot do so, then with his tongue and if he cannot do that, then with his heart, as the most truthful of people (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) has advised us to do. And if he is able to isolate himself by closing his door and placing a barrier between himself and the evil-doers, then this is from the least of matters that is binding upon him." [23]

He (rahimahullaah) also said:
"If the open manifestation of disobedience found in another land is less than that found in his own land, that land becomes a prospective place for him to perform Hijrah to."

Then he (rahimahullaah) commented on the words of Al-Mahdee (rahimahullaah) "except for a beneficial reason", by saying: "Its meaning is apparent in that if the 'beneficial reason' is so that one can benefit a group of Muslims, so that they may remain victorious, such as by his participating in some events of enjoining good and forbidding evil or by his teaching the people the characteristics of good. If it is such that these things outweigh the benefit of him making Hijrah and fleeing for the sake of His Religion, then indeed (at that point) he is obligated to abandon Hijrah, in compliance with this legitimate beneficial reason." [24]

Some comments on these last words of Ash-Shawkaanee (rahimahullaah):

1. Ash-Shawkaanee, in his commentary and compliance with the statement of Al-Mahdee, does not mention that this view applies to all of the Muslims, since it is obligatory upon everyone that is not able to openly manifest his Religion amidst the disbelievers to migrate. Rather, what he states here, is directed for a specific group of people and a particular party from amongst the Muslims, who possess a strong foundation in the practice of their Religion, their calling (da'wah) towards it and their knowledge of its affairs. This is why the conditions of enjoining good and forbidding evil and teaching the characteristics of good were mentioned.

2. These people will naturally serve to assist those that have difficulty in making Hijrah as well as those who are not obligated to migrate.

3. If this (view) is realized by being put into practice practically, and not theoretically, then indeed there is soundness to this view with regard to leaving off Hijrah. This is contrary to what has been stated by Al-Wanshareeshee (rahimahullaah) in his essay, which I have included separately in this research, as shall soon follow, with the Will of Allaah.

4. This opinion is one of the two opinions of Ash-Shawkaanee (rahimahullaah) for he has stated something contradictory to it in Nail-ul-Awtaar, in his refutation of Al-Maawiridee’s (rahimahullaah) statement:

"If one is able to openly manifest his Religion in one of the Lands of Kufr, then this land becomes a 'Land of Islaam' due to it.[25] Thus, taking residence in that land is better than leaving it for another, due to what can be expected from his causing others to enter into the fold of Islaam."

Ash-Shawkaanee refutes him by saying:
"And it is not hidden what is in this opinion from its conflicting with the ahaadeeth of the previous chapter, which indicate the forbiddance of residing in the 'Land of Kufr'." [26]

A summary of Ash-Shawkaanee's words:

In this fatwa (ruling) there is room for ijtihaad (further investigation) as well as a vast amount of discussion left to this matter. This (fatwa) does not apply to every Muslim, but rather to an exclusive group among them that consist of members that are strong in their Religion, knowledge and calling. And who can serve those that are not obligated to perform Hijrah or those that do not have the ability to do it. However, when any of these individuals is engulfed by or he fears the occurrence of affliction in his Religion, then indeed, he becomes obligated to make Hijrah from the Land of Kufr.

Ash-Shawkaanee (rahimahullaah) also said:
"Chapter: The permanence of performing Hijrah from the Land of War to the Land of Islaam: It has been related in Al-Bahr that migrating from the Land of Kufr is obligatory, according to the consensus of the scholars. This is such that if it is not done, it would be an encouragement to commit disobedience by doing the unlawful or abandoning the obligatory. Or the leader (Imaam) can seek it in order to strengthen his authority." [27]

Mrmuslim

10-04-2006, 05:34 PM

[QUOTE=ibnAbdullah87;10480]Here is another artical about Hijrah

All of this yes IF THERE is an Islamic country which follow the shariah and the rulling of Islam in every matter not only on simple people and not on rich or leaders.

wa salaam alikom

seekingtruth2

10-04-2006, 08:04 PM

Mrmuslim

10-04-2006, 10:23 PM

as salaamu alaykm wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh
So, mrmuslim is what you are saying is that there is no such thing in this day and age as a truly Islamic country?? and if your saying this then why? From what I'm getting at least in the news is that at least in the east most countries follow sharia law, that there are mosques everywhere and that you all get to go to mosque all the time and that prayer for the muslim is in the very least mandatory and that most what are considered today islamic countries are pretty good about following sharia law. Am I simply misinformed on all this? To be honest I've been thinking it would be sooo cool to go to these countries because they actually follow islam enmasse so to speak. And im not so stupid as to think everyone in these countries is a good muslim but perhaps thinking that at least a good portion is.

walikom salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh
first of all I am not in the east or Islamic country, even though I lived in couple of them, and I would like to live in Islamic country but I wish they follow shariah law in every thing....there is nt one single country now days follow the shariah as it should be. so i am not saying its that bad but I dont want people thing in west think that every body back in Islamic countries following the shariah. then when they go there they find it different. There is a lot of goodness out there and mashallah people are coming back to the basics of our deen.

I am not saying its bad to go to Islamic countries Yes the people surronding you are Muslim and you get more comfort between them and the mosques are every where. and YES they say they follow shariah law BUT NOT in every matter. I wont name any country but non of the countries follow shariah and if they do it might be in there internal affair while external matter Non follow's the shariah.

Yes we can enjoy the surronding of family and Muslims but you cant speak out against a lot of things, you can not say to any body in good position YOU ARE WRONG. or you will be in Khabr Kaan (you will be a matter of a pasttenss) just for saying that you cant speak out.

Yes as long as you go to the mosque and to your work and back home and dont worry about other yes you can live there. DONT take me wrong life isnt bad back in East but I know a lot of families (Arab) who moved back to thier country and now they are back to U.S just wonder why?

wa salaam alikom

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 04:35 AM

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 05:04 AM

Brother mrmuslim the muslim families that moved to the east and came back first are they practising the deen the way they should or are they more intrested in dunya issues. The other thing is people tend to try to critizes anything which is wrong in the muslim lands but over look the things in the lands of the kufar because they expected it to be that way but know that the people in the muslim lands are also human and some people are good while others are not. Allah also tells us many times in the Quran to be pateint and not haste. If you see some hardship in the lands of the muslims be pateint and make dua and remeber you are not doing hijra for anyone but Allah. So before making hira physical from the kufar make it mentaly by busying yourself with obidence to Allah and make your hijra with the correct intentions.

On the authority of Abu Hafs Umar bin al-Khattab (radiyllahu anu) who said: I heard the messenger of Allah :saw2: saying: The rewards of deeds depend upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. Thus he whose migration (hijra) was for Allah and his messenger, his migration was for Allah and his messenger and he whoes migration (hijra) was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his migration was for that for which he migrated.

related by al-Bukhari and Muslim in there two sahihs and can be found in 40 hadith an-Nawawi

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 05:07 AM

If I have come off as being harsh or offened any of the brothers and sisters that was not my intention

Mrmuslim

10-05-2006, 05:50 AM

Brother you need to stop critizing the muslim lands and there rulers, if you think the situation is so bad then make dua that Allah guides them and rectifies their situation but by talk bad about them that will not bring about any change. The way of the people of the sunna is to not critizes the muslim ruler even if he is a open sinner so make dua. And if the sister feels she has the ability to make hijr which is a cammand from Allah for those who are able then do not stand in the way by bring up the bad about the muslim countries. No matter how bad you think it is, it is still better then living in the land of the kufar. Even if you feel that living in this land will not effect you think about your future, do you really want to raise your kids in these lands. You are a shephered and you will be held accountable. The other benefits of living in the muslim lands is that you learn arabic which is what you need to truly understand your religion, and it would be the first language of your children, so they can have a good understaning of the religion from a young age, you can always pray on time and for the men you can allways pray in the masjid. I know for sure Saudi Arabia follows the sharia so don't say non of the countries do and even the countries that you feel do not the ruler of the land is still muslim and most of the people living there are muslim the adhan can be heard five times a day the land is muslim owned making it a muslim land. Know compare that to living in the lands of the kufar, what will you say they atleased have freedome of speech, is there real freedom of speech and is there real benefit in freedom of speech when anyone can mock the religion of Allah. Where the homosexuals can say what they want and as soon as someone says something about them it is against the human rights code, and were every Joe has his own Philosaphy on life. And again think about your childern espcailly once they are in their teens and you can not always keep an eye on what they do and we see everday how many of the muslim youth who have been corrupted in these lands and the corruption has spread to even the land of the muslims but it started here in these lands. So if the sister feels she can make hijra do not be the one to stand in the way. If she wants to save herself and her family or future family inshallah. This is my advice. If you are able to live the land of the kufar, the land of shirk to one of the lands of tawheed then leave and Allah will provide and inshallah be pleased with you.
[/COLOR]

salaam alikom

Who said you can not critize the Muslim rulers, the prophet peace be up on him said
أفضل الجهاد كلمة حق عند سلطان جائر
The best kind of jihad is the word of right at the tyrannical ruler (the oppressive government) I am not saying fight them or start causing trouble but nothing wrong in saying whats bad in our Islamic countries.
The probelm is we as Muslim try to hide our mistakes and things happenes in Islamic countries, Islamic countries are not perfect just because they are Muslim.
Ofcourse we need to make duaa for Muslim Ummah to unite and may Allah guide us to this path and this include our rulers they are Muslim and Human. no one is perfect in this world But I disagree with you that you dont have to critize the Muslim ruler he is not a prophet that you can not critize him. If they do wrong things you need to advise them and if they dont listen you let the people know about what wrong they doing.. and Nothing wrong with that.

A man from the Copts(1) came to Omar ibn al-Khattab(2) in Al-Madinah(3), and said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I seek refuge in you from oppression.” Omar replied, “You have sought refuge where it is to be sought.” The Egyptian said, “I was racing the son of `Amr ibn al-`Aas(4), and defeated him. Then he began to beat me with a whip saying: I am the Son of Nobles!”
So Omar wrote to `Amr commanding him to appear before him with his son. So they appeared before him. Omar inquired, “Where is the Egyptian? He is to take the whip and beat him!” Then the Egyptian began to beat the son of `Amr with the whip as `Umar said to him, “Beat the Son of Nobles!”
Anas said, “So he beat him. I swear by Allah, as he was beating him we pitied his wailing. He did not desist until we stopped him.”
Then Omar said to the Egyptian, “Now beat the whip upon `Amr’s bald head!” He replied, “O Commander of the Faithful! For it was his son who beat me, and I have evened the score with him.”
Upon this Omar said to `Amr, “Since when do you enslave the people when their mothers bore them as free men?” He said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I was unaware of this, and he did not come to me (for justice

the above situation is exactly whats going on in our Ummah.
and if you read carfully what i said in my previous post I said I wish I can go and live in Islamic country, and i didnt discourge the sister from moving if she can move ofcourse it will be good for her BUT I just mentioned the reality in our Islamic country, I dont think anything wrong for her to know about situations there.
And I SAID, people in Islamic countries are good and the enviroment is better than in the west, culture wise and Islamically. but not everything is perfect in Islamic countries. if people thinks that by just moving to an Islamic country all the problem will get solved then they need to rethink.

and Ya akhee the people we calling them as ( non muslim) they are the one who becoming Muslim and want to move to Islamic land,
I want you to ask this question why a lot of Muslims MOVED from Islamic countries to the west ? or answer it for me please.

you said: I know for sure Saudi Arabia follows the sharia so don't say non of the countries do and even the countries that you feel do not the ruler of the land is still muslim and most of the people living there are muslim

I didnt want to bring up any names of countries but since you mentioned it I will say this No they dont follow the Shariah in every aspect of the life yes in internal matter of the country they do but dealing with other countries (External matters) no they dont there are a lot of different rules for Muslim saudi and Non-Saudi Muslims so dont tell me they follow the Islamic shariah in every matter. BUT SAUDI ARABIA IS one of the BEST COUNTRIES in following most of the part of the shariah between common people. but not all the laws are followed on rich people. Yes people are Muslim there no doubt it has the holiest sites of Islam, the situations are much better than other Islamic countries, it has Brakah ( Blessing) in money you gain there, because of the duaa of prophet Ibrahim.
but that dosnt mean everything is perfect there.

Yes its better if you can stay in Islamic country and I support it. But that dosnt mean you loss your freedom and cant say things which are with in the limit of the shariah, Islam gave you this right, so why Islamic countries deny it on its people?
But we as Muslim try to hide our problems instead of solving them.

If every one start moving to Islamic country who will share the message of mercy of Islam with the people in the west ,The whole world belongs to Allah, and Allah tells us in the Qur'an to move freely in the land.
but if the environment in which the Muslim finds himself is one which threatens his and his family’s life or religion THEN YES ITS BETTER TO MOVE TO ISLAMIC COUNTRY.

If all the Muslims should move to Islamic countries tell me which Islamic country willing to take 150 Million Muslim of India, 80 Million Muslim of China?
tell me any MUSLIM country following shariah willing to do so?
again IF THE the sister can move to islamic country where she can learn the religion in better way and it will save her from a lot of trouble then YES why not and may Allah support her in this move.

After all of this If I have the chance to move I will move :) nothing wrong in moving to Islamic country but its not Wajib

wa salaam alikom

Nightwind

10-05-2006, 07:36 AM

Assalam alaikum,

Firstly, I wish to address ibnAbdullah87, brother I noted that although you are dictating that we should leave non Muslim countries, that you are located in Toronto. If you should leave such countries brother, why are you in a very very non Muslim country? Please brother, cutting and pasting which ever scholar post suites your view is not always wise. I could likewise find many posts learning for myself and when I was studying for my bachelors in Islamic sciences from American Open University.

Sister seekingtruth2, I consulted several scholars when I was questioning this like you. What I was repeatedly told, was that to immigrate for Allah is indeed a good thing, BUT.... it must be for the right reasons and in sincere faith, not because it sounds "cool". Also, I was told that as brother MrMuslim told you, the world belongs to Allah, and ALL countries belong to him. I am also from the midwest originally. I immigrated sister, not from my country, but away from my home and family to a community with a mosque and Muslim community. That was a sacrifice for the sake of Allah too sister. There are about 6 million Muslims in the USA sister. There are more coming to Islam and being born into Islam every day here. The scholors always told me, life in a foreign country would be difficult for me. They also told me that where in the world, if not in my country, would Islam need to be represented? I was told many times that I am needed here, to guide others, to help teach and to show the world Islam by setting example.

Historically, for those of you who are debating this, remember, when the Prophet"s companions migrated for the sake of Allah, they did NOT migrate TO Islam countries, but AWAY from them so that they might help Islam grow and spread the words of Allah to the non believers. They suffered, were tortured, and killed for the sake of Allah and many spent years away from their wives and children to establish Islam for the sake of Allah.

NO sisters should blindly move away from their western lifestyles unless they have established places to go, have a means of support and clear protection for themselves.

NO sisters should run off to a foreign country and marry a stranger that they know nothing about and have not had their families check out fully.

NO sisters should be travelling to countries where they will be alone, unescourted without the benefits of a wali to protect their well-being.

Allah never seeks for our lives to be hard. Those women that have children, do you really believe that ALLAH, the MOST Beneficient, the MOST Merciful, would ask the women to leave behind and abandon their children to go to a foreign land where they will likely be subject to harsh laws that govern women? No home, no profeciency of language, no knowledge of the laws governing women, no means of financial support in perhaps a country where most women do not work outside the home, no family to protect them and many other "DANGERS" to the women in countries where today, many people are seeking out westerners to kidnap kill or abuse. Allah does not tell us to send out women into danger but tells Muslim men that they are the protectors of women. I stongly heed caution to brothers who advise sisters to move to islamic countries without the true guidance on the behalf of a sister from a qualified scholar to that sister directly once he has been given full knowledge of the sisters personal situation.( personally, a move away from the USA would almost be a guaranteed death sentence for me because of my health and need of medical care and my age, inability to start over in a new career, and I now have small children that need me too. As a Muslim writer, I am more able to serve Allah here too, by teaching people here and helping to remove false impressions of Islam to non Muslims)

Please sister, you need to ask a scholar on your own particular case. There are always considerations on each person. Are you prepared to leave your children? Do you have health concerns that moving to a land with less than top of the line medical care would endanger your health? Do you have elderly parents that you should be close to and do your duty as a daughter to care for them? Remember, Islam gives women certain roles and duties. Can you move away from your country and still fulfill those duties?

Brothers and sisters, sometimes to please Allah there are sacrifices that must be made. Sometimes, that sacrifice may mean having to remain in a country where it is harder to live and remain pure in your Islam. Non Muslim countries need good examples of what Islam is and should be beyond the views that the media is giving them today. Think carefully before you make that "cool" move. Maybe Allah opened so many western hearts to Islam for a reason, maybe he WANTS more Muslims in the west to guide the non believers to HIM.

In the end, judgement is only for ALLAH, It is not for men to declare another a sinner without clear guidance from Allah. We are all only human and only able to try our best to translate the meaning of the Quran. Only the Prophet had the direct guidance and true answers. Each of us must judge our own cases, make Istikarah for Allahs guidance, and then pray that we make the right choices. Ask not just one scholar. Ask several. Don't just surf the net for Islamic sites and trust the first ones that you find. Allah alone knows what is best for us.

Imad

10-05-2006, 09:30 AM

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,

I agree with my sister nightwind on many different things which are mentioned by her, but i differ also with her on some statements that she has made. By the way my brother ibn Abdullah has mentioned also many statements of the Scholars. So before we say something we have to read Carefully what they have said. We have to read this very carefully to understand. One of statements of one of the scholars ( which is mentioned by brother Ibn abdullah) is the staments of Schaick ahmad ibn yahya anajmie: " Things used to be easy (in the old days). But as for today, there is difficulty in Hijrah either from the side of the country that one is migrating from or from the side of the country that one is migrating to. So whoever is able to make Hijrah, with ease and no difficulty, to a Land of Islaam, then such a person is obligated to do that. ". So if someone who cann't leave because of some problems Like healthproblems, torture of woman in muslim country:) , kidnapping :) etc... which are mentioned By our sister nightwinds than there is no obligation to make Hijra. But we have to be openminded. I know many islamic countries in which the woman will not be tortured or kidnapped and many healthproblems will be solved. They have the same medicaments like the countries of the west. So I agree with my dear sister nightwind to ask scholars on your own particular case.
Dear sister You have talked about the Shaba ( companions of the prophet). You said they didn't migrate to an islamic country but to a non-islamic country. There were no islamic countries, so they couldn't make Hijra to an islamic country. It was easier to migrate to a non-islamic country which was not harsh to them. The polytheists in Mekka were very harsh to them. They killed, tortured the muslims in those days.
And also like i said before and also what my brother Ib Abdullah has mentioned, is that we have to think deeply about our kids. How do we want them to grow. Think about the influences of the west on your Kids. It can be that you have many Knowledge and can preach beautifully, but don't think that the influences are small. They will go to school and meet other non-muslims. They will meet non-muslim teachers. Music, homosexuality, girlfriends, alcohol etc etc... I want you to think deeply. I beg Allah to make the muslims strong ans give them the ability to think carefully and to take the right decisions ,amien.

Also read the statements of other scholars carefully which are mentioned by brother ibn abdullah. If someone is not able to practise his deen ( religion ) then it will be compulsory to him to leave. Because Deen is the most important Thing. So think about it.

May Allah help you all.

Fi amanillah.

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,

Imad

Mrmuslim

10-05-2006, 12:12 PM

salaam alikom

I just want to add, I dont mean in any way that moving to islamic country is BAD. it has its rewards, and inshallah it will help a Muslim to build up his Iman with the good sroundings, specially if you have kids Allah a3lem, but I met a lot of people who were born and raised here in U.S and mashallah they are one of the best Muslims I met they went through the school here in U.S.

The guidance is the guidance of Allah who ever he wish guide to the right path. kids will grow up based on what his parents teach him at home if they teach him the right deen while he is a kid inshallah Allah will protect him and guide him.

if some one want to move forget our opinion and the opinion of the whole thread, just do Salat Istikhara This prayer is for asking guidance from Allah who know the best should be done whenever a Muslim faces an important decision

Salat Istikhara and its Dua'a and how to perform it (http://www.al-baz.com/shaikhabdalqadir/Books_and_Text_of_Wisdom/Special_Prayers/Salat_al-Istikhara/salat_al-istikhara.html)

may allah guide us.
wa salaam alikom

mohd_osman

10-05-2006, 02:16 PM

I coudn't have said it better than what Mrmuslim said.

Salaam alikom I am not a Knowledgable person but

Ok If you going to leave your country where you will go? Arabic Country ..? show me one Arabic Country following the Shariah? ok lets forget about Shariah..what about Justice? mmm lets forget about Justice... What about freedome of speech? what about discrimination..? Yes all this in Muslim countries now days.
With all of the respect to the people, who says living in Non-Muslim country is haram etc. why not they tell the leaders first to be rule with justice and follow the shairah then tell the Muslim who lives in the west to come to Muslim country.

Muslim lived side by side in Spain and it wasnt at first a Muslim country and they lived in peacefull way.
I know its hard to live now days in Non Muslim countries but its harder to live in Muslim country too. In my opinion people or Muslim follow more Islamic rules in the west than in the Muslim countries because they want to be close to thier religion.

Quote from the link posted by mohd_osman
If a Muslim were to fear that he or she will lose his/her faith by living in the West, then he or she must go back and settle down where he or she can protect his or her religion.
while living in the West, they should have a sense of mission to share the message of mercy inherent in Islam with the people around them. By doing so, we are fulfilling the prophecy of our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said, "This mission of Islam is going to reach every nook and corner of the world."

wa salaam alikom

Imad

10-05-2006, 03:10 PM

Mrmuslim

10-05-2006, 03:18 PM

Assalmo alaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,

May Allah Give you a chance to understand the meaning of Hijra. If you want to stay your whole live in the West, It's your choice.
:hawla:
Wassalmo alaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,
Imad

walikom salaam
Well the problem ya akhee is you dont want to accept that there are problems in our islamic countries, again I am not against going to Islamic country I really dont know how many times I will repeat the same words, if I have chance I would go but for just your info. I was born and grow up in most Islamic country so I know what I am talking about. When we start saying and pointing out whats wrong in ourself that dosnt mean I am against it, a Muslim is like a mirror to another Muslim.

and YES if Allah have decided for me to stay in west I will be here if he decide I have to go to CHINA I will be there too.

subhanAllah we Muslim dont want to admit that we have problems with our self and with the way of shariah followed in Islamic countries.

wa salaam alikom

Mabsoot

10-05-2006, 03:23 PM

salaam alikom

Who said you can not critize the Muslim rulers, the prophet peace be up on him said
أفضل الجهاد كلمة حق عند سلطان جائر
The best kind of jihad is the word of right at the tyrannical ruler (the oppressive government) I am not saying fight them or start causing trouble but nothing wrong in saying whats bad in our Islamic countries.
The probelm is we as Muslim try to hide our mistakes and things happenes in Islamic countries, Islamic countries are not perfect just because they are Muslim.

Assalamu Alaykum, these issues are not for ordinary people like me and you to go about explaining.

Many people quote Ayah and hadith and often do so in the wrong way. Such as the Khawarij and also other people who adopt western style mannerisms, who dilute islam with modernism. So, we must be careful especially on some matters which are of importance and great concern to the welfare of our Ummah. -

"The best kind of jihad is the word of right at the tyrannical ruler "

these are the Noble Words of our Prophet :saw:, but the explanation of hadith is not our job.

As the Muhaditheen, scholars of Hadith such as Shaykh Abdul Muhsin al Abaad stated, this means actually speaking out infront of the Ruler, face to face. This doesnt mean someone goes behind the Muslim Rulers back and says bad words about him. This hadith doesnt mean we go out on big protests and make petitions against Muslim rulers.

You must understand that excited and emotional people with lack of wisdom will achieve nothing by critisising and lamenting their Muslim rulers.

As Muslims we must always give common courtesy and respect for the Muslim ruler. He is a Muslim afterall, his status as a ruler doesnt change the way we talk to him. However, the status (i.e. Rulership) is a responsibility for him. If he abuses it, then it is he who will be questioned by Allah regarding this on Yawm al Akhirah.

This doesnt mean they can get away with crimes against their people etc, what it is based upon is the wisdom of our Noble Prophet :saw: safeguarding his followers from the repercussions of tyranical oppression.

I will say this No they dont follow the Shariah in every aspect of the life

Can any of us say we follow Shariah 100% in every single aspect of our lives? Its impossible.

For a State to be 100% Shariah? This is impossible. The Perfect rule was only under the Prophet :saw: and first 3 generation of khulafa ar Rashidoon. They were called the Rightly Guided Khulafa were they not? This has a reason, and many Ulema have written volumes of books simply about this issue.

Like i said before, we got to stick to the Quran and Sunnah, and look into how the Muslims and Ulema in the past dealt with these issues.

We are dealing with the Islamic issue of hijrah and all rules pertaining to it. THerefore we look at the issue properly. Muslim state is always going to be a Muslim state when the majority of the people are Muslims and the Ruler is a Muslim. You will find that many of the States in Islamic history did not have 100% Shariah as you would like. Some were even worse than what we have today. Think about Imam Ahmad, Ibn Taymiyyah and others who lived under oppressive rulers. They lived in Islamic States which did not favour the True Islam, which distorted the truth. For example, for Imam Ahmad, the ruler wanted to force him to say that the Quran was Created.

I have lived in and visited many countries myself, Muslim and Non-Muslim. Nobody is perfect. But, it is definitely better to be living in a Muslim country. The latter depends on circumstances,and a lot of thought and care needs to go into these things.

Question for you my dear and beloved Brother is: What would you say is 100% Shariah?

We are already weak as an Ummah, we need to stick together and be united, and call to the Quran and Sunnah.

With regards to the brother ibnAbdullah87. Hijrah, is not black and white issue of halal and haram, the scholars have made various rulings depending on the situation of the people.

Please Remember: The Case varies between people, like many Islamic rulings its important to go to a scholar and get advice.

But, it is interesting to know exactly how you envisage a person doing hijrah? There are Very few Muslim countries where you can do hijrah too. Keep in mind Hijrah is a permanent settlement. Lifetime!

Unfortunately, I dont think, in todays climate of visas and immigration rules it is possible. Would you over stay your visa? By doing so you will be doing something illegal which is a sin.... Get a job? Are there any lifetime jobs?... Even if you have your own business, many countries have backwards legislation for foreigners, some require a sponsor. I know of cases where a business to do well only for the Sponsor to take it away from the Muslim brother, and there is nothing he can do.

The sad thing is, in the midst of all the Muslim countries in the Middle East sits Israel, which allows any Jew to settle there. They give them money, land, property and even work.

Its of great importance for ALL Muslims to return to the Book of Allah and Sunnah of his messenger, for only then can we succeed and have a stronger and united Ummah. An Ummah that will not discrimate against anyone of any Race or colour and that will deal fairly with those who have different beliefs, just as the Noblest of Muslims did in the past.

wasalam.

Imad

10-05-2006, 03:48 PM

walikom salaam
Well the problem is you dont want to accept that there are problems in our islamic countries, again I am not against going to Islamic country I really dont know how many times I will repeat the same words, if I have chance I would go but for just your info. I was born and grow up in most Islamic country so I know what I am talking about. When we start saying and pointing out whats wrong in ourself that dosnt mean I am against it, a Muslim is like a mirror to another Muslim.

and YES if Allah have decided for me to stay in west I will be here if he decide I have to go to CHINA I will be there too.

subhanAllah we Muslim dont want to admit that we have problems with our self and with the way of shariah followed in Islamic countries, we just want to follow everything blindly, even if its against shariah laws.

wa salaam alikom

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

My dear brother may Allah protect me , you and all my brothers and sisters in islam. I have thought many times about the problems that i will face in islamic countries. I know there are some problems which you have to face. Allah Subhanahu wata3ala has informed us that we will be tested and that we will face some problems in this live. We have to be patient and Thank Allah Subhanahu wata3ala.

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ حَتَّى نَعْلَمَ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ وَنَبْلُوَ أَخْبَارَكُمِْ

( كل نفس ذائقة الموت ونبلوكم بالشر والخير فتنة ‏وإلينا ترجعون) [الأنبياء:35]

( ولنبلونكم بشيء من الخوف والجوع ونقص ‏من الأموال والأنفس والثمرات وبشر الصابرين ) [البقرة:155]

I know this , so please be carefull with your statements. Many scholars have talked about Hijra. Alhamdullilah, alhamdullilah, alhamdullilah.

I don't want to hurt your feelings. I'am sorry. Sometimes i make errors, because my english is not on level like you and brother mabsoot and others. So please forgive me.

Fi amanillah

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wabaraktuh,

Imad

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 04:02 PM

Nightwind you are right I do live in a non-muslim country but not because I wanted to and I do not have the money to leave quit yet but I am planning to leave with in the next year or year and a half inshallah but it is a good thing that you pointed that out. It would not be fare that I preach something that I myself do not do or plan to do.

Nightwind

10-05-2006, 04:18 PM

Assalam alaikum

I am by no means saying that it is wrong to immigrate to a Muslim country.I am saying that each person needs to weigh their own life and responsibilities and consult a scholar based upon their life before they make a rash and perhaps foolish decision. Migrating for Allah must be for the right reasons. To do so for the wrong reason or to leave behind responsibilities in their own country would be a sin upon them as well.

As I recall, the sister asking the question has said that her children are older and her daughter has already threatened to leave because her mother chooses to wear hijab. How do you think that the children will reacte if their mother leaves them to move to another land? the sister needs to ask herself if she is prepared to possibly lose her children forever. The children are not small and would most likely refuse to go with the mother and may even close the door on the relationship with her forever. Even in Islam, a mother has her obligation to her children. That doesn't change just because the children are not Muslims. The daughter is only 16. She is still a minor and at the most crucial and most easily influencible age to corrupted by the world. She needs her mother more now than ever and abandonment at this point would likely fill her with pain and anger and lead her to sin. How will our sister answer to Allah in the end for having caste her daughter aside and in to sin rather than gently guiding her by example and perhaps one day welcoming her into a life of Islam? You spoke of teaching the children in your posts and raising them as Muslims. A sister can not do that by leaving them behind and she can not force them to leave their country at their ages.

This is just one of the many things that must be considered by a sister on migrating. Yes, there are many countries that are safe. BUT....remeber, a sister MUST have a wali if she is not married. If she moves alone to a foreign land, who is her wali? Most new Muslims do not have Muslim male relatives. How will she support herself in a mostly male world? So unless a sister has made these arrangements in advance, such as by contacting local masjids where she is moving and arranged for an official wali to be appointed , she is at the mercy of any man that would try to use her. And like it or not, that is the most common problem I have seen for new sisters.

Medical care is excellant in many countries, true. But such as in my case, I am fighting to survive and my prognosis so far is maybe 5 more years, IF , the treatment was successful. I am the last of my suport group with my illness to be surviving. The other 5 have died in the last 3 months. For me to try to move and begin all over with new doctors who are unaware of my case and how my treatment has been so far, that would be a certain death sentence for me. I don't have the time to wait for a new treatment protocol.To move at this stage would be suicide and we all know what Allah has said about suicide.

I have no issues about moving for Allah. I would love to do so myself. My husband is from an Islamic country and when we married we discussed moving there in time. If my health is stabilized, then insha'allah, I will someday go there with him. But I would never travel without knowing where I am going, who I am staying with, or how I will financially survive.

I am just urging caution for any sister who is unmarried to consult scholars for themselves, not website by live experts, and to carefully weigh what they will lose and what sins a move would place upon them.

Mabsoot

10-05-2006, 04:48 PM

Assalamu aLaykum, i second what Nightwind has said.

Please take her advice, she has written something very wise and sensible, Alhamdulilah... and sisters remember to think things through, and be careful.

Also, sisters, please make sure you get any rulings direct from a Scholar, and not rely totally on what other brothers or sisters may tell you, even if you think they are your friends. This is because they may give you the wrong advice.

This is especially in the cases to do with family and relationships.

wasalam

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 07:28 PM

With regards to the brother ibnAbdullah87. Hijrah, is not black and white issue of halal and haram, the scholars have made various rulings depending on the situation of the people.

Brother Mabsoot you are right and I never said anything about halal or haram at first I just posted articales about hijra and in what times that it could be wajib and I never said the sister or anyone else must make hijra I did not give any ruling. But when I felt brother mrmuslim was total bashing the idea then I felt the need to show the good of hijra and the muslim lands but I never said you have to to anyone. But if you think that you maybe leaving behind anyone obligation then tell it to one of the known scholars of the sunna and see what they advice you to do. And hijra is one of the things that wipes away your past sins but you need to inshallah make it correctly and inshallah not illegaly. Brother Mabsoot and sister Nightwind gave some good advice so take that into consideration.

:jazaak:

ibnAbdullah87

10-05-2006, 09:19 PM

[QUOTE=Mrmuslim;10538]salaam alikom

Who said you can not critize the Muslim rulers, the prophet peace be up on him said
أفضل الجهاد كلمة حق عند سلطان جائر
The best kind of jihad is the word of right at the tyrannical ruler (the oppressive government) I am not saying fight them or start causing trouble but nothing wrong in saying whats bad in our Islamic countries.
The probelm is we as Muslim try to hide our mistakes and things happenes in Islamic countries, Islamic countries are not perfect just because they are Muslim.
Ofcourse we need to make duaa for Muslim Ummah to unite and may Allah guide us to this path and this include our rulers they are Muslim and Human. no one is perfect in this world But I disagree with you that you dont have to critize the Muslim ruler he is not a prophet that you can not critize him. If they do wrong things you need to advise them and if they dont listen you let the people know about what wrong they doing.. and Nothing wrong with that.

Brother mrmuslim do not use that hadeeth out of context the Prophet :saw2: عند which means to be with him and when you advice or critizes you need to be in from of the ruler not behind his back where he can not hear what you are saying, you need to be at the place where he runs the affairs, and we know critizing the ruler in public never brought about any benefit and the first of this umma to do so were the khawarij and it lead to the death of Uthman bin Affan (radiallahu anu), so you should read into the history of the Khawarij and see how distructive it is to critizes the muslim rulers. If the Prophet wanted people to critizes the ruler publicly he would have said An (about) I hope you know the word I am trying to you since I do not have an arabic keyboard and I am pretty sure you are much better then me in the arabic language. So I hope know that we have a better understanding of the word عند we can better understand the meaning of the hadeeth. And their are many hadeeths about the rulers and how you should act towards them.

The following hadeeth can be found in the book of 40 Hadeeth Regarding The Madhhab of The Salaf.

How The Subjects Are To advise The Muslim Ruler

On the authorit of Shuraih Bin Ubayd (radiyllahu anu) who said: Iyaad bin Ghanam said to Hisaam bin Hakeem: Did you not hear the statement of Allaah's Messenger :saw:

"Whover Wishes to advise the Ruler (sultaan), let him not do so openly. Rather he should take him by his hand and take him into seclusion [and advise him]. So indeed if he accepts that from him, then it is for him [in benefit] - and if [he does] not accept, then he has done that which was upon him [ by way of giving sincere advice]."

Narrated by Ahmad and Ibn Abee Aasim

The Obligation of Hearing And Obeying The Muslim Rulers Even If They Are TyrannicalAnd Oppressive

On the authority of Ubaadah bin As-Saamit, may Allah be pleased with him, who said:
The Prophet :saw: called us and we gave him the pledge of allegiance (the bay'ah). So amongst that which he said and made binding upon us was: that we pledged to hear and obey in times of invigoration and in times of weariness, and in times which we found hardship and in times of ease, even if someone wlse is given perference over us. And that we do revolt against the leaders unless you see from them open unbelief [which ejects one from Islaam] for which you have [for such a judgement] a clear evidence from Allah.
Narrated by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim

Also on the authority of Ubaadh, may Allah be please with him, that the Prophet :saw: said:
Hear and obey [the Leader or Ruler] in that which is difficult for you and in that which is easy for you, in times of invigoration and in times of dislike and weariness and when others are given preferential treatment over you - even if they take and consume your wealth and they beat your back. Except that you do not obey them if it involves disobedience to Allaah.
Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan

Ibnul-Qayyim (died 752H) said: The Prophet :saw:, legislated for this Ummah the obligation of rejectiong the evil so that by its rejection, the goodness that Allaah and His Messenger love is obtained. ANd when rejection the evil leads to what is more evil and more hated by Allaah and His Messeneger then it is not allowed to reject it - even if Allaah hates it and detests those who perform it. And this is like rejection (inkaar) of the kings, and the ones in authority by coming out against them [ with arms etc, to fight them], for verily, that is the basis and foundation of every evil and every tribulation till the end of time. And the Companions asked permission for Allaah's Messneger :saw:, to kill the leaders who delay the prayer from its proper time, saying, "Shall we not kill them. So he:saw: said: No, so long as they establish the prayer. And he also said: Whoever sees something from his Ruler (Ameer) that he dislikes then let him be patient and let him not raise his hand from the Ruler's obedience. And whoever reflects upon the greatest and smallest trials that have befallen Islaam, then he will see that they are due to the negligence and wastage of this principle and the lack of patience upon [witnessing] evil. So one seeks to bring about its end and as a resulte of this, a greater evil is brought about. And the Messenger :saw: saw the greates of evil in Makkah and he was not able to change them. In fact even when Allaah opened up Makkah for the muslims and when it became a Land of Islaam (Daarul-Islaam) he was resolved to changin the Ka'bah and returnign it to the foundations that Ibraaheem, peace be upon him, had built it upon, but he even though he had the capacity to do that, he was perented from it by the fear that something greater would occur due to the lack of tolerance of the Quraish, since they were ne to Islaam and had recently left unbelief.

I am not saying that you will go out killing the muslim rulers.

The Forbiddance Of Abusing The Muslim Rulers

On the Authority of Ziyaad bin Kusayb al-Adawee, who said: I was with Abu Bakrah (radiyllahu anu) sitting under the pulpit of [the Ruler] Ibn Aamir as he was delivering the sermon and he was wearing a fine garment. So Abu Bilaal said: "Look at our ruler wearing the garments of the sinners!" So Abu Bakrah (Radiyllahu anu) said: Be silent!! I heard Allaah's Messenger :saw: say:

"Whoever sends scorn upon the one whom Allaah has given rulership to up the earth, Allaah will scorn him."

Narrated by Ahmad and At-Tirmidhee, whos said: this Hadeeth is Hasan-ghareeb. And Al-Albaanee said it is Hasan.

Supplication For The Rulers Of The Muslims

On the authority of Tameem Ad-Daaree (radiyllahu anu) that the Prophet :saw: said:

"The Religion is sincere advice." we said: "TO whom?" He said: "TO Allah, to His Book, to His Messenger, to the Rulers of the Muslims and to their general people."

Narrated by Muslim

I say: "Giving sincere advice is to wish for goodness for the one being advised. And from that which is necessary in advice to the ruler is supplication for him, for his rectificaton and rectification of his subjects."

Imaam Al-Bukhaaree cited and narrated the consensus (ijmaa) of the salaf in agreeing that it is legislated to make du'aa for the Rulers.

Imaam Al-Barbahaaree (died 329H) said: "When you see a man making supplication against the Ruler (sultaan) then know that he is a person of desire. And when you hear a man making a supplication for the Ruler, for his rectification, then know he is a person of the Sunnah, :inshallah:

I ask the sister who started this Forum to forgive me for going off topic but I felt there was a need to do so, and I did not put this replay for only the benefit of mrmuslim but for the benefit of all of us including myself.
:jazaak:

I hope the rest of the replies will be back on topic. This was just a side benefit :inshallah:

Nightwind

10-05-2006, 09:21 PM

Thank you brothers ibnAbdullah87 and Mabsoot.Caution is always the best advice and asking a true scholar rather than relying on possibly bad advice from someone who had pure intentions is the best. No matter how much we may feel that we know, we are not experts in the deen and it would be sad if not only did someone destroy their life but did so on our advice and bring sin upon us as well for leading them wrongly.

Migrating must be done very carefully, if not, the one leaving will find their life in ruins and may end up resenting it and then blaming Islam for all their troubles. If you are liontamer,going to enter a cage of lions, you need to be prepared to be eaten and strong enough to face all the dangers you will meet. If you aren't,the lions for sure are going to win. If you examine all the obligations on you, all the necessities to survive such a move, all your finances and have a suitible wali(for a woman) and you still feel that this is the right thing for you, then by all means go and May Allah Bless you for your sacrifice. But if you feel that you can not do it, then stay in your country knowing that despite all the tempations and sin in your land, that Allah allowed you to see past it and still see the beauty of Islam. If you keep your trust in Him then nothing will ever take you away from that.

Mrmuslim

10-05-2006, 10:09 PM

salaam alikom

first of all t Sister nightwind may Allah cure you and help you with your hardship, remember your sins are been forgiven while you are in your hardship,
‘As’alu Allâha rabb al-‘arsh il-‘azîm an yashfiyaka
(I ask Allaah, Lord of the mighty Throne, to heal you), may Allaah heal you of the sickness.

#2 I am not debating with any one here about moving or migration to islamic country, I am with making duaa and advise the rulers but that was in the past now days try and go and advise one of the rulers.
I wont comments no more about this topic but take a look by your self its in a Islamic country

this just one Example :
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/74C68E51-8C24-4BF7-AEC7-1E0BF4BDA061.htm
banning the Hijab and cover in Tunisia in schools and university

last but not least as brothers and sisters said its better to ask an scholar and before all this do you Istikhara and ask Allah s.w.t for the best decission

wa salaam alikom

ibnAbdullah87

10-06-2006, 12:21 AM

This discussion about the rulers needs it's un forum since this forum is not about the muslims rules. And for the record the rulers of the past the tyrannical once were more harsher in their punishments just look at the what happend with Imam Ahmed like brother Mabsoot pointed out or what happened to Imam Malik, or when Ibn Taymiyyah but you never heard that they critized the ruler or went against him even though they were right and the rulers were not follow the sharia 100%. Just because times change does not mean that we can know leave the sunnah and if we can not advice the rulers then we do not oppose the sunnah and speak out against them it is not an excuse make dua like you said you said you like the idea of making dua and stay patient. Allah will not change are situation if we oppose the sunnah of His Messenger. Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah is for all times and will never get out dated until the hour is established.

Mabsoot

10-06-2006, 12:39 AM

Assalamu Alaykum,

Well Tunisia is not exactly an "Islamic" Country nor does it aspire to be one. Likewise many brothers have problems in neighbouring countries

But, Muslims can easily live in many Islamic countries without feeling threatened by anyone.

You will find good and bad people everywhere. Its common sense to take caution and not expect everyone to be honest and Islamic. i.e. having love for each otherm and being trustworthy and caring as Muslims should.

However, i got to say the people in Every Muslim country, including Tunisia and others will definitely be the most welcoming, warm hearted and kind people you will get to meet.

Well i have been lucky and blessed by Allah to have lived in and visited a lot of countries, Muslim and non Muslim. Each one is unique and different. The people are always different in many ways. From culture, hospitality to religious observance

I got to say that the Muslim countries always stood out from the rest. The People were always loving and friendly. Sure, there will be some who have bad character, but thats to be expected anywhere. On the whole, people were super. I definitely do not get to see people like that here in England. I live in a non-Muslim area in England. People here are not as friendly, too afraid to make conversation, the culture here is so different. There is no such thing as hospitality and friendliness to strangers or even neighbours in the UK. Everyone keeps themselves to themselves.

Even the local Christians in a village i lived in, in Lebanon were really hospitable, kind and friendly. Ok, Lebanon doesnt have an Islamic government, but the people are Islamic and many Sunni Areas there.

Maybe i can share some pics and videos i made of the Mosque where the famous scholar, Ibn Hajar al Askalani used to teach and also perhaps video about Islam in Lebanon which i made.

What we see here in the news, is so different to the reality there. People do get along and work together, its not a problem.

The UK and USA in particular are not "Safe" places for Muslims anymore. Our rights are slowly being taken away. Everyday politicians and people say bad and stupid stuff against Muslims.

Wasalam

This discussion about the rulers needs it's un forum since this forum is not about the muslims rules. And for the record the rulers of the past the tyrannical once were more harsher in their punishments just look at the what happend with Imam Ahmed like brother Mabsoot pointed out or what happened to Imam Malik, or when Ibn Taymiyyah but you never heard that they critized the ruler or went against him even though they were right and the rulers were not follow the sharia 100%. Just because times change does not mean that we can know leave the sunnah and if we can not advice the rulers then we do not oppose the sunnah and speak out against them it is not an excuse make dua like you said you said you like the idea of making dua and stay patient. Allah will not change are situation if we oppose the sunnah of His Messenger. Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah is for all times and will never get out dated until the hour is established.

Assalamu Alaykum,

yes these issues are to do with something called "Manhaj", basically how we go about doing things as Muslims. i.e. should we try overthrow Muslim rulers ? Do we call a Muslim a non-Muslim for a small sin? Do we deal out our own vigilante justice etc.

Please Read the Following Book by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal,

foundations_of_the_sunnah.pdf (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=292&stc=1&d=1160096882) It has detailed story of the life and trials of Imam Ahmad, how he was imprisoned in Iraq for his beliefs and how he stayed firm in his beliefs. Also, it talks about the Muslim Rulers please see Chapter 5 Pg 120.

wasalam.

ibnAbdullah87

10-06-2006, 03:57 AM

After reading foundations of the sunnah by the Imam and defener of the sunnah Imam Ahmed then read from page 30 on this pdf
By Imam of Hadeeth Mohammaed Ibn Ismael Al-Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him)

Read the section called Dealing With The Rulers starts on pg 29

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ghazali1/CreedBukhari.pdf

But read the trial of Imam Ahmed first it is inspiring and shows true patients upon the truth which has not been seen since then.

:jazaak:

Nightwind

10-06-2006, 04:42 AM

Assalam alaikum

Thank you for your kind thoughts MrMuslim. Insha'allah I hope to spend a long life and see my beautiful children grow and one day marry. But if Allah chooses to take me home to Him, I am at peace fully with whatever may be. I know that he is filled with Mercy and has given me many more years than I would have had without His help. I guess that as a poet and writer I have had to learn to sum up my emotions and look inside myself. You might be suprised what you find if you look deep enough. We have much more strength than we ever realize there in our souls.

Mrmuslim

10-06-2006, 05:06 AM

salaam alikom again :)

I didn’t say anything about people of the Islamic countries... we talking about ruler you can criticize them there is nowhere in shariah where it says don’t, we don’t have to create a fitnah between people but that doesn’t mean you can not criticize a ruler.

As the people of Islamic countries and I have been to some, as mabsoot said they are most welcoming and generous people you will find, they will open their house and hearts for you, specially when they know that a NEW brother or sister came to Islam, they get more generous :).

The link I posted it was about government not about people and we are not talking about people we are talking about rulers.

Yes the situation for muslim in west are bad, but Allah s.w.t can change this by day and night and why ( the Ummah) is below of all nations because our sins and not following the shariah.

Allah said (( ان الله لا يغير ما بقوم حتى يغيروا ما بانفسهم ))
surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition; and when Allah intends evil to a people, there is no averting it, and besides Him they have no protector. 013.011

We can not blam everything on Non Muslim and say oh they doing this and that why dont we look @ what we as Muslim doing , what our ruler doing to us. and whats going on in the Islamic countries, Shariah dosnt say if the ruler is killing and oppressing people make Duaa for him, if you want to yes go head but its not a wajib,

if i do anything wrong people can advise me or criticize nothing wrong with it.
the propeht peace be up on him never said in any hadith that you can not criticize a ruler, we need to obey them as long as they follow the shariah but we dont have to obey them anything against shariah. as you dont have to obey your parents if they try to misguide you or to disobey Allah s.w.t

situation in the west may be bad, its all because of ignorance of the people of the true message of Islam, and when they get to know it they open thier heart for it.

As for the brother who was asking about the families who are returning back to the west after they moved back to thier own islamic country I dont know whats in thier hearts but I know they are Muslims and follow the religion of Allah and pray in the mosque and keep up with good work.

As for the part where a brother said, I like the idea of making Dua. I didnt say IDEA i said yes we should make dua for the ruler but that dosnt mean we can not criticize them.

at the end make you smile
وجد الحجاج على منبره مكتوباً : " قل تمتع بكفرك إنك من أصحاب النار " سورة الزمر آية 8

فكتب تحته : " قل موتوا بغيظكم إن الله عليم بذات الصدور " سورة ال عمران آية 119

the Hajaj (ruler of Iraq) found on his minber a verse of Quran written
Enjoy yourself in your ungratefulness a little, surely you are of the inmates of the fire. 039.008

so he wrote another verse under the one was written by people.
Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts.003.119

wa salaam alikom

wa salaam alikom

Imad

10-06-2006, 07:42 AM

Assalmo alaikoem warahmatullahi wbaraktuh,

Jazakumullaho gairan. May Allah heal you all, amien. Sister Nightwind do your best reading the Quraan. bidni Llah it will have a great influence on the sickness. The Quraan is schifauoen lima fi sodoer ( It a healing for what is in the breasts). Some scholars have pointed out that de Quraan has also Healing effects for the physical body.

May Allah return me, you and all muslim sisters and brothers in a state of Ihsaan to Him, amien.

Fi amanillah.

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wbarakatuh,

Imad

ibnAbdullah87

10-07-2006, 05:26 AM

I do not think we should continue on talking about the issue with the rulers in this forum, we are not getting anywhere it seems. I said my part and brought proofs from the messenger, sahaba and the Imams of the past that it is not permissable to speak out against the rulers as did brother Mabsoot. I really hope you take the advice it will be to your own benefit and a benefit to the rest of the muslims to take to the principle of not speaking out against them. If I miss quoted anything or said something that is wrong then may Allah forgive me. This prinicple does not change just because times have changed. Inshallah if anyone wants further clearifactions start a seperate forum that is specific to the issue of the rulers and if you can contact a known scholar of the sunnah to explain to you. I don't think the sister that started this forum seeking advice would like it for us to deviate from her question. I am the one who probably start by bringing up issues that lead to the change so forgive. :salam2:

ibnAbdullah87

10-07-2006, 05:34 AM

Let me correct myself this whole time I have been saying forum but what I meant to say was thread.

Mrmuslim

10-07-2006, 06:14 AM

[QUOTE=ibnAbdullah87;10758]I do not think we should continue on talking QUOTE]

salaam alikom
Jazaaki Allah Khayran sister nightwind,

and brother IbnAbdullah, and Mabsoot. but I have to say this what you mentioned is not an evidence in any way that we cant not criticize the ruler there is no prove in shariah about this, or its against the shariah, a ruler is a wali of Muslims but that dosnt mean he is above the law in any way.

ضرب الرسول صلى الله عيه و سلم أروع الأمثلة للخلق العظيم و من أهمها العدل في التعامل. و قد صار على نهجه الصحابة و على رأسهم عمر بن الخطاب و الذي سماه الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم بالفاروق لأنه كان يفرق بين الحق و الباطل و كان العدل من أهم سماته منذ أن دخل في الإسلام. و لقد خطب عمر في الناس عندما تولى الخلافة قائلا: (إن رأيتم في إعوجاجا فقوموني. فيندب له رجل من عامة المسلمين يقول: لو وجدنا فيك اعوجاجا لقومناك بحد سيوفنا. فما يزيد عمر على أن يقول: الحمد لله الذي جعل في رعية عمر من يقومه بحد سيفه.)7 و هذا يدل على قمة المساواة و العدل. فلقد أعطى عمر بن الخطاب الرعية الحق في أن يقوموه بالسيف إن لم يستقم بعكس ما هو قائم حيث أن معظم الحكام لا يسمحون إلا بتبجيلهم و تعظيمهم واضعين نفسهم في مرتبة أعلى من بقية البشر. كما أن عمر بن الخطاب في وقت خلافته خطب في الناس في وجود الولاة ليعرفوا حقوقهم و واجباتهم قائلا: (إني لم أستعمل عليكم عمالي ليضربوا أبشاركم، و يشتموا أعراضكم، و يأخذوا أموالكم و لكن استعملتهم ليعلموكم كتاب ربكم و سنة نبيكم عليه الصلاة و السلام، فمن ظلمه عامله بمظلمة فلا إذن له على يرفعها إلى حتى أقص منه. فقال عمرو بن العاص: ياأمير المؤمنين أرأيت إن أدب أمير رجلا من رعيته أتقصه منه؟ فقال عمر: و مالي لا أقصه منه و قد رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يقص من نفسه؟

we have the greates example in our prophet peace be up on him and then in his companion and one of the greates companion is omar bin khattab, who said in his speech Radi Allah Anahu when became Ameer to his people; he said
(If you saw any kind of distorting in me stright me up so a man from among general Muslims said: If we find that you distorting we will stright you up with our swords upon this Omar bin Khtab said : Thank God for making among my people who would stright me with his sword).
And this indicates the summit of equality and justice. But most of leaders now days would not allow only to good things about them , putting themselves on a higher level than the rest of humanity.

where are our rulers when
- A mosque of 400 years old was destroyed in India, At least they could force India to rebuild the mosque I think they have enough power to force India..!
- when Danish news paper printed pic of the prophet peace be up on him
- when Muslim women were getting raped and killed in Bosnia

ذكــــر القلقشـندي صــاحب كـتـاب ( مـآثـر الإنـافـة ) في سبب فتح عمورية على يد المعتصم عـام 223هـ : ( يحكـى أن صاحب عمورية من ملوك الروم كانت عنده شريفة من ولـد فاطـمة رضي الله عنها ، مأسـورة في خلافة المعتصـم بن الرشـيد ، فعذبها ، فصاحت الشـريفة : وامعتصماه ، فقال لها الملك : لا يأتي لخلاصك إلا على أبلق – خيـول فيها سواد وبياض – فبلغ ذلك المعتصم فنادى في عسكره بركوب الخيل البلق ، وخـرج وفي مقدمة عسكره أربعة آلاف أبلق ، وأتى عمورية وفتحها ، وخلص الشريفة ، وقال : اشهدي لي عند جدك أني أتيت لخلاصك ، وفي مقدمة عسكري أربعة آلاف أبلق ) .

where these rulers you talking and saying not to criticize them from El moatsim bIllah المعتصم when typical woman captive in the hands of the Roman screamed "وامعتصماه" OhMotsim ( she was shouting his name to help her from romans) he heard this from one of his soldiers while he was seated on the bed and he rised from his bed and ordered the army to get ready and he went to Amuriyah and opned the city and saved the woman

Even Hajaj most brutal rulers of Muslims in Iraq who was known at his time that he killed and oppressed Muslims he has sense to save Muslims when they are needed, when Muslim women in a ship were captured by Meade el-Deeble "(one of the oldest Indian peoples) and took the Muslim women in thier Battleship , one of the owmen screamed Oh Hajaj Oh Hajaj and it reached to him that, he replied Yalbekee ( Meaning I am coming or answering her back) and he send an army to save these women.

نسوة مسلمات في سفينة، عرض لهن قوم من "ميد الديبل " (من أقدم الشعوب الهندية) في بوارج فأخذوا السفينة بما فيها، فنادت امرأة منهن، وكانت من بني يربوع: يا حجاج! وبلغ الحجاج ذلك، فقال: "يالبيك" فأرسل إلى "داهر" ليسأله تخلية النسوة، فقال: إنما أخذهن لصوص لا أقدر عليهم، فأغزا الحجاج "عبيد الله بن نبهان"، "الديبل" (مدينة شهيرة على ساحل الهند)، فقتل، ثم أمر "بديل بن طهفة"، فلما قتل ولى الحجاج "محمد بن القاسم" في أيام "الوليد بن عبدالملك"، فغزا السند

What you said and Brother Mabsoot said is just your opnion, I agree with you we should make dua for them and we should unite as Muslim etc...BUT no where in Shariah says you can not criticize a ruler.

I know what our Imams went through like Imam Ahmed bin hanbal may Allah have mercy on him, but that dosnt mean you can not criticize.

I will ask the Imam about this issue inshallah but I would say this

"الخلاف في الراي لا يفسد للود قضية
A difference of opinion does not spoil amity , we are brothers in islam and may Allah guide us to his straight path.

wa salaam alikom

Karima

10-07-2006, 04:02 PM

Asalamualikum,

I have to ask, "Is it soup, yet?"

This long thread of discussions has been a feeling of a lot of thought and energy to guide us to the right path...in any form of decisions in our lifetime on earth.

I would like to say that this post summed it up well: by Nightwind.....

Thank you brothers ibnAbdullah87 and Mabsoot.Caution is always the best advice and asking a true scholar rather than relying on possibly bad advice from someone who had pure intentions is the best. No matter how much we may feel that we know, we are not experts in the deen and it would be sad if not only did someone destroy their life but did so on our advice and bring sin upon us as well for leading them wrongly.

Migrating must be done very carefully, if not, the one leaving will find their life in ruins and may end up resenting it and then blaming Islam for all their troubles. If you are liontamer,going to enter a cage of lions, you need to be prepared to be eaten and strong enough to face all the dangers you will meet. If you aren't,the lions for sure are going to win. If you examine all the obligations on you, all the necessities to survive such a move, all your finances and have a suitible wali(for a woman) and you still feel that this is the right thing for you, then by all means go and May Allah Bless you for your sacrifice. But if you feel that you can not do it, then stay in your country knowing that despite all the tempations and sin in your land, that Allah allowed you to see past it and still see the beauty of Islam. If you keep your trust in Him then nothing will ever take you away from that.

Sallam

seekingtruth2

10-09-2006, 11:12 AM

as salaamu alaykm
First i want to say jazak allah khair to all who replied and gave so much thought to my questions. I appreciate all of you my brothers and sisters in Islam.
Please let me respond to those who want to act like by asking a question of this importance here in this forum is just stupid. It is not. People's replies in this forum have ALWAYS been well thought out and supported by either the quran or sunnah. So yes, to ask a question here can actually be a wise decision and often leads to not having to ask the various scholars and waste their valuable time just because you cannot find information right away in either the quran or sunnah because your not looking in the right place. The information I was looking for was received when the brother quoted from the quran.
And no sister I am not so ignorant as to just rush off blindly into the middle east without much thought and planning and would NEVER do so at the expense of my children, however I thank you for your concern. All I said was that if this is supported in the quran then I need to give this some thought and possible planning. As we all know depending on what your planning plans can take years to fulfill.
Please consider your words and possibly ask questions before you so quickly put down other people as well as a forum as good as this one.And I believe most people in matters of importance consult more than one source for their information their mosque included before making any conclusions. And what the brother said about raising children in the west does bear weight with me as I am hoping for a good marriage with a muslim man and more children so thank you brother for those words of advise. I have seen first hand what the influence of the west can do to an impressionable child, you make a wonderful point here.
Oh, one more point to you, just because someone says something would be "cool" like seeing for themselves a place where the majority of the populace actually practices their religion also does not make them uneducated, I hold to my wording on this one.....It would be so cool to see!!!!
I sincerely apologize for sounding harsh in any way I did, however, feel the need to express myself and defend myself.
Once again thank you to everyone who replied, your words are always taken into consideration.

Also sister I am so sorry to hear of your illness and I will keep you in my prayers daily.
salaam

q8penpals

10-25-2006, 07:23 PM

I have visited many countries with majority Muslim populations, many mosques, and rule with "shariah" law (at least mostly). In my opionion, NONE of them are "true" Muslim countries. In most of the Arab Gulf states, ethnic discrimination is rife and blatant in everything from hiring practices to how police enforce laws - even when they are Muslims, but from different (read - East Asian) countries.

Also, many of the middle east countries - even when women wear headscarves, they are defnitely not dressed in 'hijab" - I dressed more modestly in the US BEFORE becoming a Muslim that many "born Muslim" women in these areas.

Many of the far east Muslim countries put way too much of their culture into their practice of Islam ("honor" killings as a huge example). The practice of female circumsision (genital mutilation) is rife in some African nations that have large Muslim populations (many Muslims do this to their daughters because it was done to them, to their mothers, etc, and it is NOT part of Islam).

Think Taleban - Afghanistan was supposed to be an Islamic/Shariah run country and look how it was perverted?

Just in the newspaper today, Turkey is struggling with "honor" killings also.

Egypt seems pretty close, but look at the Egyptian actresses, the belly dancers in all the night-clubs, and the alcohol that flows freely down the throats of many Muslims?

In my experience, and humble opinion, there are no "true" Islamic countries today.

Lana

Kayote

10-25-2006, 09:43 PM

In my experience, and humble opinion, there are no "true" Islamic countries today.

Lana

:salam2:

I couldnt agree more with you.

If anything I have very disappointing views on Saudi law after having lived their for 5 yrs.

There is no form of Sharia Law ANYWHERE out there today. No country or muslim has the right to take selective aspects of Sharia law & distort the rest to their own liking. Insha'Allah they will be answerable to Allah (SHW) for this.

WaAliekum Assalam

P.S: Nice post Mr.Muslim.

cadette

10-27-2006, 12:17 PM

HEre's my 2c worth

If all the Muslims in Non Muslim countries moved to the Muslim countries, how are we going to invite people to revert to Islam. Didn't the Prohet SAW convert people by them watching the way he lived his life. Shouldn't we do the same?

ON the subject of Islamic countries, this is something that happened to a relative of my fathers. They went as part of a Jammat group to Visist with some very learned Imam in Egypt. When they got off the plane they were interogated for 2 days based mainly on their appearance and dress (these were all men, no women in the groupt at all). They all had beards, wore clothing that very much resembles the way the saudi men dress, except they wore the hats, not the scarf on their heads. And all this in an Islamic country.