why there is no thread about the pope speech

[aiwa]

asalam allaikum brothers and sisters

What do u all think of the pope Benedictus's XVI speech, did he really mean to insult the prophet Mohamed (PEACE BE UPON HIM), OR Islam...
Was his apology convincing? Since he didn’t apologies publicly, instead another person quoted his apology.


thanx

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

asalam allaikum brothers and sisters

What do u all think of the pope Benedictus's XVI speech, did he really mean to insult the prophet Mohamed (PEACE BE UPON HIM), OR Islam...
Was his apology convincing? Since he didn’t apologies publicly, instead another person quoted his apology.


thanx

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

Bismillah...

Brothers and Sisters, indeed we have cause for concern regarding the Pope's comments a couple of weeks ago. I have a few comments to share regarding this matter, as I do read the news every single day and I was very disturbed by what Benny had to say. Here is a quote from a trustworthy Canadian newsmedia website, the CBC.ca:

[[When the Pope gave a speech in Germany on Tuesday, he quoted a a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor who said 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.' The reaction from Muslims around the world has been swift and furious. Yesterday, the Vatican issued a statement saying 'The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers.' Has he truly apologized - and will that be enough?]]

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Secondly, I am disgusted by his weak and pathetic apology. What I didn't quote is that the Pope actually said, in defense of himself, words to the effect of: Besides, I was only quoting a 14th century emperor and that those words don't reflect my own opinions. He said this. Uhm, okay - If those words didn't reflect his own opinions... Why would he say them?! I mean, seriously!! Cmon!? Obviously he agrees with them, otherwise the Pope wouldn't have included them in his speech to illustrate his point about how violence and religion should never go hand in hand. I would like to insult Benny at this point, but upon reflection of now being a Muslim I will say nothing except that I leave it to you (my Brothers and Sisters) to make your own judgement, and that I leave it to Allah to make the final and supreme judgement.

And my 2nd point flows nicely into my 3rd comment on all of this. Benny said that he was repulsed on how Muhammad SAW used the sword to spread Islam. Okay, but let's be fair and take a look at the history: Really, our Prophet (peace be upon him) only used the sword to defend the lives of the Muslims when fleeing Mekkah to Medina when the disbelievers were plotting all sorts of things against him, and while in Medina in self-defense. It's not like he went over to Iran and said, "You guys revert to Islam, or I'm gunna keel you!" No, this isn't the case and anyone who isn't an ignorant dungbeetle knows this.

HOWEVER (and yes, this is a BIG however) ... Let's take a trip down Memory Lane. Anyone remember the history of the Christian Church? Anyone? Good, because I do! It all started with the last Roman Emporer Constantine deciding that he was unable to control his empire from also worshipping "God"/"Jehovah"/"Allah" so he was better off just accepting Christianity. Infact, not only did he accept it but he made it a thing that was mandatory across the whole of his empire (for tax reasons, too). If you weren't a Christian, you were an Infidel, a Heretic!! And indeed he commissioned the Roman Catholic Church to begin a whole new chapter of cruelty in human history. We had the dreaded "Confessors", the "Inquisitors" (a little later), and a whole Roman army dedicated to invading any country that didn't accept Constantine's views of Christianity. Anyone remember the "heretics" being burned alive at the stake? Anyone remember the "Christian Soldiers" who would crucify the unbelievers, all across Europe and even elsewhere? Forgive me for discomforting you, my dearest Brothers and Sisters, but the fact of the matter is that it was the Christians who spread religion by the sword! Far more than Muhammad (peace be upon him) or (to my knowledge) any other group of Muslims since!

There is one last point I'd like to make about Constantine, and I believe it reflects a great deal of truth about his mind. It is recorded in history that right at the very end of his life, just before he was about to die that he suddenly insisted on getting baptized. I believe that we Muslims know about baptism with water, because I know John the Baptist is meantioned in the Qu'ran. Basically, it's something that Christians are compelled to do; something that seals your bond with God, and forgives you of any sins you might have commited before swearing your heart over to Christ and to God. He did this right at the very last days of his life. Why? I'll tell you why - Because he had a guilty conscience! Because he was compelled to do whatever he could to make peace with God. Otherwise he would have done it years before. No, this was an act of desparation. Ponder that for a while.

My dearest Brothers and Sisters, I am not saying these things to you in the hopes that you will hate Christians. I am telling you this so that you know the Hak, the truth. Pity the ignorant Christians, but do not hate them. Not even Benny is to blame, because he's just a guy filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was etc. etc. etc. The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers. I was a Christian for 15 years (yes I know I keep telling you this, but it's the truth) and I always had a heart to serve and please God - All it took was for me to use my rational brain, to put together the facts for myself, and to accept the encouragement of YOU people here at TTI as well as the knowledge this website posseses.

Alhamdulilah

So to answer your questions, Sister Aiwa: Yes he really meant to insult our Prophet SAW, but also to insult the intelligence of the whole world community. Yes he was insulting Islam. No his "apology" was not at all convincing, and may I also accuse him of being a coward for not apologizing himself but instead having to use one of his peons.

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls). Of course, you'll never hear Benny talking honestly about this issue - but just remember that next time this dungbeetle tries to insult our religion.

Assalamu Alaikum, my Brothers and Sisters. I hope this knowledge helps you understand, and guide more misinformed believers to Islam. Peace! =)

[Mabsoot]

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

http://www.puzzlehouse.com/images/webpage/seychelles1000jumbo.jpg

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he :saw: was patient. Look at how the Prophet :saw: had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.

[Andalusian]

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers.



Assalamo alaikoum

I liked brother your sentence about Satan :)
there are some verses :
"O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan (Satan); surely he is your open enemy."
Surah N°2 The Cow (al-Baqqara) verse n°168

"Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be niggardly, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing."
Surah N°2 The Cow (al-Baqqara) verse n°268

"Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°60

"They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°117

"He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°120

"And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our communications, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray."
Surah N°7 The Eleveted Places (al-A'rafe) verse n°175

"And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment."
Surah N°14 Abrahame (Ibrahim) verse n°22

"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah N°16 The Bee (Anahele) verse n°63

"And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and follows every rebellious Shaitan;"
Surah N°22 The Pilgrimage (al-Hajj) verse n°3

"So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,"
Surah N°22 The Pilgrimage (al-Hajj) verse n°53

"Certainly he led me astray from the reminder after it had come to me; and the Shaitan fails to aid man."
Surah N°25 The Criterion (al-Furqane) verse n°29

this verse sum up the what you said brother :
"Like the Shaitan when he says to man: Disbelieve, but when he disbelieves, he says: I am surely clear of you; surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds"
Surah N°59 The Banishment (al-Hachere) verse n°16

WaSalam

[Andalusian]

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

http://www.puzzlehouse.com/images/webpage/seychelles1000jumbo.jpg

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he :saw: was patient. Look at how the Prophet :saw: had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.



:salam2:

i found this comment in a website but there is no source this is the translation :

"Do you know that more than 500 places in America names of Arab root carry? What there were Amerindianes tribes whose women wore the veil as the sign Islam? And that an Amerindian chief Cherokees has as name Ramadhan Ibn Wati? this is a link about him :
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sequoyah1.htm

and an Algerian, named Salem, son of a royal family from Algeria of the 18th century who were taken as slave by the Spaniards and brought in America and lived among an Amerindian tribe of the state of Virginia before converting to Christianity? etc…
The theory according to which there would have been Moslems in America before the conquistadors is not new. It is already obvious that Christophe Colomb was not the first navigator of the old world having put the feet in America: The history of the Vikings is already known, but less known, of the navigators of the kingdom of Mali, sent by the king abou bakar II, already crossed the Atlantic.
In the same way it is allowed to think, since Christophe Colomb would have used charts (maps) which were established by the Andalucians Moslems (Muslims who lived in Andalucia in Spain today), that they would have preceded him to reach America.
Witnesses of the presence of Moslems, it would seem that the town of Mecca in Indiana would come from the name of Mecca to Arabia. In the same way for Medina in Ohio, Texas… These names of Amerindian origin, and are not instituted by the colonists.!! "

« There are 565 names of places (villages, towns, cities, mountains, lakes, rivers, etc.) in USA (484) and Canada (81) which are derived from Islamic and Arabic roots. These places were originally named by the natives in pre-Columbian period. Some of these names carried holy meanings such as : Mecca (Indiana) - 720 inhabitants, Makkah Indian tribe (Washington), Medina (Idaho) - 2100, Medina (NY) - 8500, Medina and Hazen (North Dakota) - 1100 and 5000, respectively, Medina (Ohio) - 12,000, Medina (Tennessee) - 1100, Medina (Texas) - 26,000, Medina (Ontario) - 3200, Mona (Utah) - 1100, Arva (Ontario) - 700, and many others. A careful study of the names of the native Indian tribes revealed that many names are derived from Arab and Islamic roots and origins, i.e. Anasazi, Apache, Arawak, Arikana, Chavin Cherokee, Cree, Hohokam, Hupa, Hopi, Makkah, Mahigan, Mohawk, Nazca, Zulu, Zuni, etc. »

Again i have to insist that i just found this comment on a website and i translate it and that i am not sure about those sentence and arguments.

See this link (MUSLIMS IN THE AMERICAS BEFORE COLUMBUS)
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html

I think that some studies even why not PhD etc. must be done as brother TheHumbleWun said in his comment :
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22&page=2



I will end with this verse :

"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah N°16 The bee verse n°63

:wasalam:

[muslim]

Question:
How can Islam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?

Answer:

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth (Guidance from almighty ALLAH) , reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.

ALLAH effaceth What He will, and establish (what he will), and with him is the source of ordinance.[Quran 13:39]

1. Islam means peace.
Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).

2. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.
An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?


3. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

4. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.
Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.


5. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

6. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

7. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

8. Indonesia and Malaysia.Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"

9. East Coast of Africa.
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"

10. Thomas Carlyle.
The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."

11. No compulsion in religion.
With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

12. Sword of the Intellect.
It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.
Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

[Mrmuslim]

Salaam Alikom

I just want to comment on the incident of pope Benedictus's, Allah swt make things happen for a reason which far beyong our thought... and I am sure there is a good thing will come out of this too, a lot of people in Europe started reading about Islam and some of them accepted islam just becaus what Danish newspaper did, also with incident of 9/11 1000's of people came to Islam, Allah make things happen for a reason. They try to push people a way from Islam and every time they do or say something against Islam it comes back with good results people start learning moure about islam on wide range.


يريدون أن يطفئوا نور الله بأفواههم ويأبى الله إلا أن يتم نوره ولو كره الكافرون) (التوبة: 32).
They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse /009.032 .

(هو الذي أرسل رسوله بالهدى ودين الحق ليظهره على الدين كله ولو كره المشركون) (التوبة: 33).
He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse. 009.033

also the prophet peace be up on him said
ما رواه مسلم في صحيحه وأبو داود والترمذي وصححه وابن ماجه وأحمد عن ثوبان أن النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال: "إن الله زوى لي الأرض - أي جمعها وضمها - فرأيت مشارقها ومغاربها، وإن أمتي سيبلغ ملكها ما زوي لي منها. . . " الحديث (رواه مسلم برقم -2889-، وأبو داود -4252-، والترمذي -2203- وصححه، وابن ماجه -3952-، وأحمد 5/278، 284).

Meaning:
The prophet peace be up on him said { Allah collected the earth for me and I saw the east and west of the earth and my Ummah will reach as much Allah collected from earth for me and I saw) Muslim-2889-, 4252-Abu Daoud-, and Al-Termezi - 2203-and corrected, The son of Magh - 3952-

This my translation I couldnt find the english translation if any onehave the english translations of hadith can you post the link

and also
[B]ما رواه ابن حبان في صحيحه: "ليبلغن هذا الأمر - يعني الإسلام - ما بلغ الليل والنهار، ولا يترك الله بيت مدر ولا وبر إلا أدخله الله هذا الدين، بعز عزيز، أو بذل دليل، عزًا يعز الله به الإسلام، وذلاً يذل الله به الكفر" (ذكره الهيثمي في موارد الظمآن إلى زوائد ابن حبان -1631، 1632

Translation ( Narrated by Ibn Haban that the prophet peace be up him said
This matter ( meaning Islam) will reach as far the day and night reached, and Allah will not leave a house except he introduced this religion to this house, either by honoring of honorable or by humiliating the humiliater )

This my translation of hadith so if you have it in english please post it

wa salaam alikom

[west]

Okay, its really simple. when he was young, this pope had belonged to the Nazi Youth. He also has no sympathy for any other religion beside Christianity. In the last few months he even insulted teh Jews at Auschwitz.

Unfortunately the pope is a religious leader who thinks that he can say what he wants. People must also realise that he does not spek for all Christians.
I was Christian - look what faith I am practising today. The majority of my family are Christian and they are not anti-Islamic. We need to look at this in the context that it is the personal opinion of one man.

See Islamonline.net for more stories and responses to the pope's speech

[Robb]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well :)

[Robb]

Oookey.. it seems my posts don't register? O_o

[Mabsoot]

Hi Robb, welcome to this site.

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.

Hi, Islamite? sounds like marmite..... First, make sure you know who you are addressing and what it is you are talking about.

Im quite suprised at your first statement...... especially when the US has killed 200,000 people in Iraq.. and has recently supplied weapons to Israel and allowed them to massacre thousands in Lebanon.

People are dying in the Middle East because of US imperialism. Lets not forget the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran, the empowerment, support and supply of chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein (a great friend of Rumsfeld), the support and creation of Alqaeda in Afghanistan (yes, a lot of CIA money went into that!).....

Oh, and there is Israel, a racist apartheid state, which is handed billions of dollars so they can freely use missiles, helicopters, tanks and cluster bombs against some of the most poverty stricken, stateless people in the world.

You are talking to someone who in the past year lived in a Christian/Muslim village in Lebanon. I can show you some photos if you really want of Churches and Mosques near each other.... and Muslims and Christian neighbours chatting about the world cup.....

It was the Crusaders, who sent out by the Pope to kill and plunder ... massacred the Arab Christians and the Muslims. For their brains were soooo up their nether regions, they had no idea that there were Christians living in that region.

Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived side by side in the Middle East for centuries. Evidence is in the history books. ----- Archaeological evidence is in the magnificent and luxurious Jewish quarters which are still visible today in Toledo, Morocco and Iraq. The Churches that were built by Muslims still stand.......

This website is a testimony to Islam and its openess to all of mankind. We have Americans, European, Arab, African, Asian... Muslim and non-Muslim....

No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.

AlQaeda is evil, there is no doubt about that. What they do is wrong and it is not from Islam. They use politics and the theory of "Revenge" to justify their actions........... its the foreign policy that does it..

Suicide bombing and terrorism is not something that Islam sanctions.

Its not my fault that people believe everything they see in the NEWS everything FOXNEWS tell them.

Hizbullah, does suicide bombing. ??Did you know the majority of their suicide bombers were Christian and secular/atheist?? Infact, they even had a Christian female school teacher who decided to be a Suicide bomber. ---- the question needs to be asked why people would do such things..... for them, it was for their nationalism, to expel the invaders......

In Pape's book "Dying to win" he conducted research and found that Hezbolla suicide bombers in the period 1982-1986 were 71% Christian, 21% Communist/Socialist, 8% Islamist (204-07).

So, Extremism and terrorism hasnt anything to do with Islam. It has everything to do with desperation and oppression.

Tony Blair, George Bush.. and the worst puppy Howard go around telling people that the Iraq war has not angered anyone, nor has it created any increase in global terrorism. Totally untrue, as long as they continue to do this:

http://www.pulsetc.com/image/2004/1103/Iraqi-civilian-deaths2.jpg

People will continue going towards extremism..... its as simple as that.

This is not to say that it is justified... no attack against civillians can be justified.... But, it is very simplistic to imagine that Muslims and Islam is evil due to the actions of a very small group of people who are statistically insignificant but whose actions are shown on the media.

Infact, it can also be said that these groups deliberately do these extremist actions simply to get their voice heard and seen on the media..... and to create a reaction such as yours..... The extremists want to create seperation and conflict.

Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

Whats wrong with going down to your local Mosque? You have come to this website, you have contact with Muslims, so how can you even say such a thing?

In that case, wouldnt someone living out in Iraq seeing American soldiers kick doors down and shoot children will think they are the true face of Westerners? (not christians as there are Christians living in Iraq, but, you wouldnt know it because the media dont show it..... some of the oldest churches are in Iraq)

Oh, and we shall not forget Australian history..... and its treatment of aborigines and other immigrants. When was it that forced seperation of families was finally outlawed??? "The Stolen Generation" ? 1969..

[Robb]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact ;)
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart :)

Salaam.

[Mrmuslim]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well :)

Hello and Peace be up on you too Robb, welcom to TTI I hope you will enjoy reading and learning more about Islam,

You taking incidents and linking them to Islam , eventually you have not read or searched what is the True Islam.
you blaming more than 9 billion Muslim for the action of few. No Muslim agreed or will agree with what happened and Most of the Muslim condimed what happened but the MEDIA choose not to show it on so they keep showing the wrong Idea about Islam , and in no way any muslim is responsible for action of others. as you are not responsible of action of others on the streets.

No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha


If that the case lets go back in history and see what chiristian did to Muslim when they went to jeruslem (and you can watch the movie kingdom of heaven to get just very little idea)
what Chirstian did to Muslim in Bosina where more than 80,000 human being before being ( Muslim) been killed in a way non of the Human being would think.
they killed pregnagt women, newly born babies...etc search on google and you will find more, they still finding mass graves for Muslims till today 6 years after the war.

We can not blame Chirsitians in every part of the world for what happened in bosnia, same way you cant blame all the muslims.

at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.


No they are not representing Islam in any way, that what the Media want you to believe I would suggest you do some more reading and research on Islam instead just following what the Media says. I would suggest you take a look at the link which has a lot info about True Islam
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12
wa salaam ( Peace)

[Andalusian]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well :)


Hello there
I think you got a full answer up but i want to add something, and i will talk with honesty to you.
You talk about "violence" in "Islam" so give for us things as they are don't talk to us about what happen in some areas or what some people do.
Because violence has no land or time.
Try just to take a look on history to learn about nations who used what they call "resistance" to liberate their nations in all part of the world.
Why when someone use "Islam" to fufill his own agenda, do you see with open eyes and do you blame Islam as religion??

Look i will be with you frank,from inside the Quran, because saying anything and stick it to islam it's a shame on every person who lives on earth.

So let us talking about "violence" as you call it, i hope that you will be honest in your understanding!

Allah Says in the Quran :
"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, but do not transgress the limits, surely Allah does not love those who transgress the limits".
Surah The Cow al-Baqqarah N°2verse n°190
You know the more people blame Islam the more muslim and non-muslim learn about Islam and as a consequence the muslims stick to Islam and non-muslim revert because lies against Islam push people to look for information like i do now. :)

I will help you now and i will give you the explanation for the Aya above:
Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you',

So everyone will defend his family etc. from ennemies even cats or birds do the same things!!! so open your eyes and don't make advertising for the empty message of "love"!!

You have to remember, above all fighting was between personvperson without tanks or missiles...


You know the question is not what happen and to defend or to blame Islam etc. This is the question : because violence which happen in other places, people and media don't care much about it or talk about it, they talk only when someone use "Islam" on his own live!
Things are lights clears : Mankind and Man look for lies so as not to believe in a Creator, they want to live in their own live in their fiction freedom as they imagine it!

About this Allah says :
"We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious."
Surah the cave (Al-kahf) N°18 verse n°54

Unfortunately everyone thinks that he does well in this life, but Allah says this :
"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah The Bee (An-Nahl) N°16 verse n°63

This is the teaching of Islam and the Quran :
"For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land."
Surah The Food al-Maidah n°5 verse n°32


So don't try to isolate and stick to one word like "slay" or isolate one verse alone as some people who think there are clever and start to learn arabic so as to tell to muslims we master arabic then we understand what the Quran said and we are able to understand that Islam teach "violence". Those people try to explain word by word and to say what they want but they don't care of the message of Islam.
Islam is an honest religion and way of life and no one word were deleted or erased or changed from the Quran. I think only this fact it's a message for people and should think about it. But i know that not all people will open their heart!! This is what God and his messeger Peace be upon him teach us :

"And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"
Surah Yunus N°10 verse n°99

"And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ."
Surah Hud N°11 verse n°118

So tell me there is more than this freedom which Islam teach us!!!

But let us again see what the Quran says :
"If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds"

an advise for you don't be lost inside those silly arguements against Islam or some dates in history about fighting or what happen today. But try to open your heart and your mind!
"But when the deafening cry comes, The day on which a man shall fly from his brother, And his mother and his father, And his spouse and his son, Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him."
Surah He frowed (Abasa) N°80 verses n°33-37


You brag watching video on ogrish!!!
I will give you only ONE simple example : if we filmed what colonialism did in some areas : they threw people alive in desert from planes which were flying.


Open your mind, open your heart...
:)

[Mabsoot]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact ;)
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart :)

Salaam.

Hi, Robb

There is always another side to somethings. It is true that terrorism and killing of civillians is wrong, as we have pointed out before it is a sin.

At same time, you must realise the anger and frustration people feel. You state that many troops have died in Iraq trying to keep the peace. . .

But, is that why they were sent there? And is that what Iraqis think of the troops?? 200,000 have died..... many more died whilst the same Western Leaders supported Saddam Hussein. The US urged Iraqis to overthrow Saddam, and they did that in 1991. 2/3s of the provinces were free from Saddam's control..... however, US help never arrived, they lied.. Their spy drones were seen overhead when Saddam's men shot and massacred protestors and revolters........ The history goes waaaaaay back, in the 1920s British empire had been responsible for the killing of 1000s of Kurds, infact they used Chemical weapons against them.

So what about all this??? How can you stick to your point of view when all these things and much more have happened to the innocent people in Iraq?

Iraq today has more killings, more torture than it EVER had under Saddam Hussein.

Now, i do not want to go into politics, but there is a political and historical dimension to these issues....

What we as Muslims want, is peace. To not have any foreign involvement in our affairs..... However, this is difficult as USUK coalition want the oil.

This war was about oil, gas, strategic control and aiding Israel. Our governments could not give a damn about the people living in Iraq.

They dont care about the poor. Those calling the shots have 1,000,000s at stake, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Rice all of these war hawks have stakes in reconstruction companies, oil&gas companies, weapons and armaments manufacturers.......

They sit back waiting to get the US, UK, Australian, tax payers to pay for the war...... whilst preparing to loot the natural resources of the Iraqi people.

As for the people who target the coalition, what do you expect when a sovereign country is bombed in "shock and awe" fashion and an unpopular foreign invasion occurs?

People are dragged off the streets by the invading army, there is a shoot first ask questions later policy. - so they have not won the hearts and minds of anyone, except the lackeys they pay to be in power.

Suicide bombing shouldnt be happening, the Iraqis shouldnt be wasting their lives trying to get rid of these invaders. Their lives are far too precious.

[mr. ok]

:bismillah:

:salam2: my dear brothers and sisters (Muslims & non-Muslims)

AlQaeda is evil, there is no doubt about that. What they do is wrong and it is not from Islam. They use politics and the theory of "Revenge" to justify their actions........... its the foreign policy that does it..

How would he know as he lacks the teachings of Islam. He's just being a naive person who lets the Media influence (effect) his judgment. He doesnt care for the truth (it shows after what he said but i believe people can change). If he did he would pick up the Quran and actually read it. In Robs case, you cant make a horse play the piano.

Rob, please for give me if i misunderstood you or said anything unsounded, offensive, or wrong about you.

barakAllah fik

[mr. ok]

:bismillah:

:salam2: my dear brothers and sisters (Muslims & non-Muslims).

Posted by Rob: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

Look you got to understand one thing. The people whom you speak of may appear Muslims to you but always remember that Islam does not support terrorism!

Written by Mabsoot: "At same time, you must realise the anger and frustration people feel"

Rob, people kill each other all the time but dont judge Islam by there actions or any religion for that matter. But study the religion and then judge them according to there religion.

When love ones die people revolt (in war). I think its unwise of those people who think they have the right to kill anyone (unfortunately, often innocents have to pay the price) just because their loved ones were killed. There is no justice in this. Verily, this is not of Islam.

Please forgive me if i said anything offensive, wrong, or unsounded.

Best Regards,

Mr. Ok

[dna1987]

Suicide bombing shouldnt be happening, the Iraqis shouldnt be wasting their lives trying to get rid of these invaders. Their lives are far too precious.

About this little bit in your post, an Iraqi friend and classmate of mine, told me in that a car garage was shut down in his uncle's village in Iraq for planting bombs under cars while fixing other things (eg. like replacing a flat tyre, etc). Makes you think..hmmm..

And think about this ... ONE muslim could be travelling in a bus with 40 other people; if somebody blows the bus up externally, or if if anybody blows the bus up, the muslim will be labelled a "terrorist suicide bomber". How is anyone going to argue with that? How is anyone going to find the time to investigate an attack like that, if there are dozens of attacks everyday. It's a lot simpler to say "well somebody blew it up; it must have been a suicide bomber".

To Robb, there is more than sufficient evidence that suggests Muslims were not behind 9/11. For you to use that as an example of "Islamic terrorism" is not right. We could make an entire thread about that, just discussing it. There is already another thread about 9/11 (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2007) in the "Current Affairs" that you might find interesting.


And if you want to know a long list of false flag operations commited to create disruptions between the Muslims and say .. Jews, you should read this article by an Iraqi Jew, who moved to Israel in the 1940s.
The Jews of Iraq (http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html)

[Mabsoot]

Assalamu alaykum,

^^^^ with regards to suicide bombing anyone targetting civillians is a criminal act, same as Murder ^^^^^

About this little bit in your post, an Iraqi friend and classmate of mine, told me in that a car garage was shut down in his uncle's village in Iraq for planting bombs under cars while fixing other things (eg. like replacing a flat tyre, etc). Makes you think..hmmm..

Well there is an Iraqi sister on this forum who told me how people in Baghdad found American Soldiers with bomb making equipment.... They were planting car bombs. :frown:

Last year soldiers were found wearing Arab clothings and with bomb making equipment.

Also, the Soldiers were seen looting buildings in early days of the war. Specifically they were looting the museums AND they were seen burning Iraqi Government offices. Both the latter cases have been documented by the famous English journalist Robert Fisk in the Independent Newspaper.

Whats unfortunate is people either Dont know whats happening in Iraq and the Muslim world, i.e. they do not know the extent of the oppression and torture of Muslims in places in Chechnya, Palestine, Darfur etc.

Or they do know about it and get too emotionally attached to the issues and do not think properly with regards to it. <- this is case with some Muslims who are ignorant to what Islam says regarding these issues.

[Robb]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me :)
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

[Mabsoot]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me :)
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

Nobody has been aggressive to you, nor is there flaming.

Seems your responses are pretty immature to say the least, and im not sure you are in the least bit bothered to know where the truth actually lies.

What is required here is sincerity and empathy for all people. We have explained pretty clearly the Islamic position and also the cost to human life due to those soldiers you so heartily back.

The media argument is not a weak one. If you had any idea about human suffering due to various States around the world, you would not be saying what you say.

All you have done is complained about a group of mercenaries getting killed in IRaq.

The premise should be that every life is valuable. No innocent should ever get hurt or oppressed.

What im tired of is people who keep complaining about Muslims, when its the Muslims who are being killed in the 100,000s.....

Yes, 9/11 was a tradgedy... Even though many rich people sitting in the twin towers, who were forcing debt laden contracts on poor people died. It is still a crime.. it is still murder.

However, that does not justify demonising the innocent Muslims or Islam.

If you had any sympathy for humanity, you would have realised the cost of the so-called "War on Terror". 200,000 Iraqis, 1000s of Afghans, tens of thousands of Chechens, 1000s of Palestinians and Lebanese have died...... men, women and children because of "State terror". They are not terrorists, they didnt do anything wrong. Their only crime was to be on resource rich land, land of strategic importance, land greedily lusted over by Zionist Jews and Christians.

- Yet, all you see is a few angry people who use "Islam" to carry out revenge.. and you are content to label all Muslims as terrorists.

The sheer ordasity people have, when coming up with this rubbish is beyond me. Either its ignorance or it is hatred. Muslims have had 1000s of their own 9/11s with nobody coming to help or eradicate the War criminals

You are definitely not being flamed or treated unfairly. I dont believe you have any excuse to carry on with your close-minded ideas.

What is wrong with treating everyone equal and being fair and impartial?

Take a look at some of the videos in the current affairs section:

The video is by an Australian, his name is John Pilger.....

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

[mr. ok]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me :)
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

O so its okay for you to say anything (before thinking/getting your FACTS straight) and not be judged? It’s amazing how people can point fingers at us (Muslims) and then try to justify themselves, and make it look like we are the bad guys all of a sudden.

Okay so you’re not influenced by "American media," fair enough. How about Finland's? In order for someone to make a comment on something, in this case on Islam, you have to at least know something about it. Whatever you said so far was based on outside knowledge (what you have seen or see), because I certainly didn’t see anything except you making some assumptions on Islam. I hope I didn’t miss the part where you stated some solid evidence.

If your a christian (or not) here is something once said by a wise man: why do you look at the faults of your brother and fail to notice the speck in your own eye?

If Islam approves terrorism then i dont know why am wasting my time being a Muslim as peace is what i stand for and live by!

Pleace forgive me if i said anything offensive or sounded unsounded in anyway.

Best Regards,

Mr. Ok

[Mrmuslim]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me :)
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

Well Robb, no one has been aggressive with you or said anything bad to you. did they?
All what they listed in response to what you accused them with...aren’t they have the right to defend what you accusing the whole 9 billion Muslim with? Isn’t it that what you call in Democracy ? No one has been aggressive with you or even said bad words to you. They all listed facts from history and from news no one made up anything with what they said.

If you consider that saying the truth hurts then ya it might hurts but that the truth Islam has nothing to do with killing, if you want to associate Islam with things like this then you are Wrong and you just closing your mind to understand the true Islam, you already made you mind and don’t want to hear anything else against your Idea.

You are always welcome to discuss here in this site but just try to have respect to the feeling of your friends in here too as they trying to be with you:) The problem is when one Muslim or even group of Muslim do something wrong in any part of the world people and Media BLAME THE WHOLE 9 BILLION muslims, on other hand when any chiristian or people of other faith do anything wrong you will blam the person not his religion.... the point is ..Not every Muslim follows the Islamic teaching so you cant associate Islam and Muslim nation for the wrong things they do or did

Last but not least I would suggest you read or watch section Learn about Islam at least for the sake you can say you watched them...

at the end I just wanted to show you some facts since you said Hindu never did anything bad .....

Two hundred and thirty unique Islamic monuments, including an exquisite 400-year-old mosque, were destroyed or vandalised during the recent anti-Muslim riots in the Indian state of Gujarat, according to a local survey.
Experts say the damage is so extensive that it rivals the better publicised destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan or the wrecking of Tibet's monasteries by the Red Guards.

Several monuments have been reduced to rubble in the course of the riot, in which 2,000 people, mainly Muslims, have died. In other disturbances, Hindu gangs have smashed delicate mosque screens, thrown bricks at Persian inscriptions, and set fire to old Korans.

I am not sure YOU WILL take the time to read this too.. hopfully you do..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1857414.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1933521.stm

Then after what they did they denide visa to Amnesty

Amnesty denied visa

By Anjali Mody
NEW DELHI July 22. An Amnesty International team has been denied visas to India because it wanted to go to Gujarat to investigate the massacres and other human rights violations and to monitor the progress made in bringing their perpetrators to justice.

In a statement issued today, Amnesty International said, "This refusal damages the image of both the Indian and Gujarat Governments before their citizens and the international community. A Government which fully accepts its responsibilities in protecting its citizens and upholds their constitutional rights to life and equality does not shy away from international scrutiny
Amnesty said that the Indian Government's refusal to grant it access to the State would "only reinforce the concern that the Government of Gujarat and the State police might have been accomplices in preparing the ground for the violence and in allowing it to occur and could be attempting now to cover up involvement of their officials.''

I hope you review what you said about muslim and Islam and think with open mind.


Thanks

wa salaam

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

You won't find any flaming here, Robb - but what you will find are the TRUE faces of Islam trying their best to show you what practicing Muslims believe about what's happened and about how world-wide media (when Geroge Bush announces ties between Muslims and 9/11 for instance, EVERY media outlet displays his messages, which gets the ball rolling against a whole group of people on the "axis of evil" - followed by announcement after announement, Yellow Alert this, Saddam Hussain that, Al-Queda the other) ... and, basically, it's gotten out of control and reason.

If you want some details in video form, check this reminder from Ali. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmMdPKw378&feature=PlayList&p=409C23E2F903F8D3&index=8) =)

If you perceive our honest intentions to share and educate as aggressive, that's your call. But if I were to say that my impression of you was very poor for incorrect reasons, how do you suppose you'd respond in turn - assuming you'd even care enough to try to clear your name with me. It's not an ideal situation, for anyone.

Peace be with you; it's the only path.

[Mrmuslim]

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813/

23-09-2006


Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.


The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

[Saifullah]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact ;)

Salaam.

hello Rob, I guess you got the link to this site from me ,I usually debate a lot in ogrish,Specially in the Religous thread by the name of Saif.Ive made posts like The true iran and it's people reality is very different.I paste links to this website a lot over there in ogrish . Specially the video of Safiyah an american jew who lost 8 relatives in sept 11 and yet she converted to islam. I guess thats where you found the link to this website sorry about my english...
But there is one gurantee which i can give you in this turntoislam website nobody will abuse or mock you ,Just like they do to us muslims in ogrish.Thankyou

[cedric098]

C'mon Robb!! You can't be serious, is this what you really think after all these replies?..

I'm sure these guys would still call us violent terrorists had we been a bunch of little girls holding dolls in one hand and flowers in the other, just because we are muslims... I'm truly astonished how good tempered the responses to his posts are, but this guy still talks about beheading,flaming, violence and stuff. He clearly has rock hard prejudices and is not really interested in what the truth is! He builds his whole attitude towards a religion by looking at a few pictures and videos on dead-body-pictures-hosting websites...But anyway, may Allah open his eyes insaallah!

[khan_saddozai]

salam ppl u gota c dis
Go to this website and watch this film.........do it quickly as it has already
been pulled off several web sites already!........afterwards you'll see why!

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

[khan_saddozai]

hey..rob..
it's clear u dnt like islam..fair enough..because i strogly believe in freedom of speech and religion..but jus look at the facts..bin laden was trained by the cia...muslims cope with opression coz they have oil in their countries..and ppl feel threatened by islam spreading..
think about it

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:arabi1:

Very well done Flash video; I've seen other videos with basically the exact same evidence (though with perhaps less eye-witness names) - this one is short and sweet, maybe that's why the Feds don't like it? I hadn't seen as many photographs from within the Pentagon either, come to think of it.

How much more evidence does America need before they fulfill their constitution and rise up to bring down their tyranical government and its overpaid, overpowered agencies?

Who am I kidding. Americans don't care as long as they can still fill up their SUVs in their low-interest-financed, individualistic and selfish values-based comfortable McLives.

This video really deserves its own thread, but perhaps TTI.com is better off with it hidden away in the Pope's thread (*cough* CIA & FBI douchbag hackers *cough*)...

[samiha]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact ;)
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart :)

Salaam.

You claim to be an atheist yet give salam? Why? You beleive Islam to be such and you end with peace.... really.
:confused:

[yafash]

aslam alaikum,
wow our dear friend robb,
i was very intriged by this thread, i really have nothing to say all that is sayable has been said, allah knows best. after reading thru nobody has flamed, we hav just presented the truth as it is. we can only call u to islam we cannot make u accept it. we can only also pray that allah guides u. it was very interesting reading what u had to say.
may allah let us see truth as truth and let us accept it, and falsehood as false hood and may he help us reject it.
may allah defend those who have defended his religion with their knowlegde.
asalam aalikum

[Abdul Hasib]

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

Bismillah...

Brothers and Sisters, indeed we have cause for concern regarding the Pope's comments a couple of weeks ago. I have a few comments to share regarding this matter, as I do read the news every single day and I was very disturbed by what Benny had to say. Here is a quote from a trustworthy Canadian newsmedia website, the CBC.ca:

[[When the Pope gave a speech in Germany on Tuesday, he quoted a a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor who said 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.' The reaction from Muslims around the world has been swift and furious. Yesterday, the Vatican issued a statement saying 'The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers.' Has he truly apologized - and will that be enough?]]

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Secondly, I am disgusted by his weak and pathetic apology. What I didn't quote is that the Pope actually said, in defense of himself, words to the effect of: Besides, I was only quoting a 14th century emperor and that those words don't reflect my own opinions. He said this. Uhm, okay - If those words didn't reflect his own opinions... Why would he say them?! I mean, seriously!! Cmon!? Obviously he agrees with them, otherwise the Pope wouldn't have included them in his speech to illustrate his point about how violence and religion should never go hand in hand. I would like to insult Benny at this point, but upon reflection of now being a Muslim I will say nothing except that I leave it to you (my Brothers and Sisters) to make your own judgement, and that I leave it to Allah to make the final and supreme judgement.

And my 2nd point flows nicely into my 3rd comment on all of this. Benny said that he was repulsed on how Muhammad SAW used the sword to spread Islam. Okay, but let's be fair and take a look at the history: Really, our Prophet (peace be upon him) only used the sword to defend the lives of the Muslims when fleeing Mekkah to Medina when the disbelievers were plotting all sorts of things against him, and while in Medina in self-defense. It's not like he went over to Iran and said, "You guys revert to Islam, or I'm gunna keel you!" No, this isn't the case and anyone who isn't an ignorant dungbeetle knows this.

HOWEVER (and yes, this is a BIG however) ... Let's take a trip down Memory Lane. Anyone remember the history of the Christian Church? Anyone? Good, because I do! It all started with the last Roman Emporer Constantine deciding that he was unable to control his empire from also worshipping "God"/"Jehovah"/"Allah" so he was better off just accepting Christianity. Infact, not only did he accept it but he made it a thing that was mandatory across the whole of his empire (for tax reasons, too). If you weren't a Christian, you were an Infidel, a Heretic!! And indeed he commissioned the Roman Catholic Church to begin a whole new chapter of cruelty in human history. We had the dreaded "Confessors", the "Inquisitors" (a little later), and a whole Roman army dedicated to invading any country that didn't accept Constantine's views of Christianity. Anyone remember the "heretics" being burned alive at the stake? Anyone remember the "Christian Soldiers" who would crucify the unbelievers, all across Europe and even elsewhere? Forgive me for discomforting you, my dearest Brothers and Sisters, but the fact of the matter is that it was the Christians who spread religion by the sword! Far more than Muhammad (peace be upon him) or (to my knowledge) any other group of Muslims since!

There is one last point I'd like to make about Constantine, and I believe it reflects a great deal of truth about his mind. It is recorded in history that right at the very end of his life, just before he was about to die that he suddenly insisted on getting baptized. I believe that we Muslims know about baptism with water, because I know John the Baptist is meantioned in the Qu'ran. Basically, it's something that Christians are compelled to do; something that seals your bond with God, and forgives you of any sins you might have commited before swearing your heart over to Christ and to God. He did this right at the very last days of his life. Why? I'll tell you why - Because he had a guilty conscience! Because he was compelled to do whatever he could to make peace with God. Otherwise he would have done it years before. No, this was an act of desparation. Ponder that for a while.

My dearest Brothers and Sisters, I am not saying these things to you in the hopes that you will hate Christians. I am telling you this so that you know the Hak, the truth. Pity the ignorant Christians, but do not hate them. Not even Benny is to blame, because he's just a guy filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was etc. etc. etc. The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers. I was a Christian for 15 years (yes I know I keep telling you this, but it's the truth) and I always had a heart to serve and please God - All it took was for me to use my rational brain, to put together the facts for myself, and to accept the encouragement of YOU people here at TTI as well as the knowledge this website posseses.

Alhamdulilah

So to answer your questions, Sister Aiwa: Yes he really meant to insult our Prophet SAW, but also to insult the intelligence of the whole world community. Yes he was insulting Islam. No his "apology" was not at all convincing, and may I also accuse him of being a coward for not apologizing himself but instead having to use one of his peons.

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls). Of course, you'll never hear Benny talking honestly about this issue - but just remember that next time this dungbeetle tries to insult our religion.

Assalamu Alaikum, my Brothers and Sisters. I hope this knowledge helps you understand, and guide more misinformed believers to Islam. Peace! =)

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

http://www.puzzlehouse.com/images/webpage/seychelles1000jumbo.jpg

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he :saw: was patient. Look at how the Prophet :saw: had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.


Yeah and we shouldn't even tgo to the Knight's Templar! I mean, In 1312, under pressure from King Philip IV of France, Pope Clement V officially disbanded the Order at the Council of Vienne. In 1314, the remaining Templar leaders in France were executed, some by being burned at the stake.

King Edward I (1239–1307) had accorded the Knights Templar a slighter role in public affairs, financial issues often being handled by Italian merchants and diplomacy by mendicant orders. Indeed Edward I raided the treasury in 1283.

When Philip IV, King of France suppressed the order in 1307, King Edward II of England at first refused to believe the accusations. But after the intercession of Pope Clement V, King Edward ordered the seizure of members of the order in England on January 8, 1308. Only handfuls of Templars were duly arrested however. The trial ran from October 22, 1309 until March 18, 1310 in front of Deodatus, Abbot of Lagny and Sicard de Vaur. Most of the Templars acknowledged their belief that the Order's Master could give absolution was heretical, and were then reconciled with the church. However, Willian de la More refused to do so and remained a prisoner in the Tower of London until his death.

The papal Bull of Clement V granting the lands of the Templars to the Knights Hospitaller was ignored until 1324. In 1347, the priests started letting (renting) part of the Temple to lawyers, from which the evolution of the Inner Temple and Middle Temple as Inns of Court derives.

And:

Roman Catholic Church's position

It is the Roman Catholic Church's position that the persecution was unjust; that there was nothing inherently wrong with the Order or its Rule; and that the Pope at the time was pressured into suppressing them by public scandal and royal influence. The Church's response at the time corroborates this position. The papal process started by Pope Clement V, to investigate both the Order as a whole and its members individually found virtually no knights guilty of heresy outside of France. Fifty-four knights were executed in France by French authorities as relapsed heretics after denying their original testimonies before the papal commission; these executions were motivated by Philip's desire to prevent Templars from mounting an effective defence of the Order. It failed miserably, as many members testified against the charges of heresy in the ensuing papal investigation.
Jacques de Molay, nineteenth-century color lithograph by Chevauchet
Jacques de Molay, nineteenth-century color lithograph by Chevauchet

Despite the poor defense of the Order, when the papal commission ended its proceedings on June 5, 1311, it found no evidence that the Order itself held heretical doctrines, or used a "secret rule" apart from the Latin and French rules. On October 16, 1311, at the General Council of Vienne held in Dauphiné, the council voted for the maintenance of the Order.

But on March 22, 1312, Clement V promulgated the bull Vox in excelsis in which he stated that although there was not sufficient reason to condemn the Order, for the common good, the hatred of the Order by Philip IV, the scandal brought about by their trial, and the likely dilapidation of the Order that would to result from the trial, the Order was to be suppressed by the pope’s authority over it. But the order explicitly stated that dissolution was enacted, "with a sad heart, not by definitive sentence, but by apostolic provision."

This was followed by the papal bull Ad Providum on May 2, 1312, which granted all of the Order's lands and wealth to the Hospitallers so that its original purpose could be met, despite Philip's wishes that the lands in France pass to him. Philip held onto some lands until 1318, and in England the crown and nobility held a great deal until 1338; in many areas of Europe the land was never given over to the Hospitaller Order, instead taken over by nobility and monarchs in an attempt to lessen the influence of the Church and its Orders. Of the knights who had not admitted to the charges, against those whom nothing had been found, or those who had admitted but been reconciled to the Church, some joined the Hospitallers (even staying in the same Templar houses); others joined Augustinian or Cistercian houses; and still others returned to secular life with pension. In Portugal and Aragon, the Holy See granted the properties to two new Orders, the Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa respectively, made up largely of Templars in those kingdoms. In the same bull, he urged those who had pleaded guilty be treated “according to the rigours of justice.“
Two Templars burned at the stake, from a French 15th century manuscript
Two Templars burned at the stake, from a French 15th century manuscript

In the end, the only three accused of heresy directly by the papal commission were Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, and his two immediate subordinates; they were to renounce their heresy publicly, when de Molay regained his courage and proclaimed the order's and his innocence along with Geoffrey de Charney. The two were arrested by French authorities as relapsed heretics and burned at the stake in 1314. Their ashes were then ground up and dumped into the Seine, so as to leave no relics behind.

It is also worth noting that in no other dominion of Europe were accusations leveled as had been made in France by Philip IV, who was also coincidentally in terrible financial debt to the Templars. So widely was the injustice of Philip's rage against the Templars perceived that the "Curse of the Templars" became legend: Reputedly uttered by the Grand Master Jacques de Molay upon the stake whence he burned, he adjured: "Within one year, God will summon both Clement and Philip to His Judgment for these actions." The fact that both rulers died within a year, as predicted, only heightened the scandal surrounding the suppression of the Order.

[Joslyn]

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Hello, brother. I am a revert from Catholicism and I just wanted to point out an error in what you said, because as Muslims, we cannot lie, and I also don't want a potential Catholic revert to read what you said and discount Islam completely because of one mistake. (I know that I almost did that before I came to Islam.) It doesn't detract from everything else you said, but I wanted you to be accurate in your understanding.

So here's the scoop: Catholics do not believe that the Pope himself is infallable. They believe that he speaks infallably *only* when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra (Latin for "From the Chair (of Saint Peter)." So Pope Benedict can in fact make mistakes when he acts on his own volition.

By the way, the source he quoted was not even Catholic. They were Orthodox, I believe. Not a major point, but interesting nonetheless. :)

Salaam,
Joslyn

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Regardless, I find it amusing that this thread still has life in its veins; It goes to show just how much people care about what Benny had to say as well as these deliberate and direct assaults on Islam. The truth is out there, and I think many have tried to shed light here in this thread.

Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam

[Abdul Hasib]

:salam2:



Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam
Do let's! :SMILY126: (Just playing :SMILY128:) I mean yeah let's do that!

[Abdul Hasib]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Regardless, I find it amusing that this thread still has life in its veins; It goes to show just how much people care about what Benny had to say as well as these deliberate and direct assaults on Islam. The truth is out there, and I think many have tried to shed light here in this thread.

Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam
Don't judge sister Joslyn too harshly brother Brandon, she was just giving an...
Waite! What is the word I'm looking for? Oh yeah!

She was just giving a, a, a, a ... Darnit!:angryblue: :angryred: Her opinion or what she knows. Yes! that's what I mean loL:lol:

[Abdul Hasib]

Hey, did my face scare everyone away? Ha Ha! I love a good joke!!!! loLeRinAginG! Or was it my avater? Or my smilies?

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

Assalam Alaikum

lol - I think it was the Afgani military dude with walkie-talkie Avatar that scared everyone off ;-p

I hope I didn't come off sounding harshly judgmental. Of course I wasn't pleased to be indirectly called a liar, but y'know ... My intentions were good. Allah knows this. =)

All the best

Psst, Abdul Hasib ... you start a new thread titled, "why there is no thread about the pope visit" and I'll go from there ;-p That way we can have two nearly identical threads regarding the pope, and really throw off our brothers and sisters. ;D

Wasalam

[Joslyn]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Wasalam

I did not mean to imply that you were lying. I merely said that as Muslims we cannot lie, *meaning* we should tell the absolute truth about everything and we should also want to know what the truth is concerning a subject if we have accidently said something that was not fully accurate. Also, if I had seen your post and did not correct you, I would be guilty of lying by omission.

As for the Ex Cathedra statement, I didn't make up the rules... no need to be snippy to be about it to me, brother. And I think there is a specific formula the Pope uses to announce his ex-cathedra statement. Something to the affect of, "I ________, a servant of the servants of God, give this statement for everlasting memory..." It's not like he has to plop into the chair to become infallable. :)

Also, please do not call Pope Benedict "Benny." You may not like him, I may not like him, and he may have been very wrong in what he said, but his new name is Benedict. I wouldn't want Christians going around calling the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, "Mo'."

No matter how we feel about someone, isn't it best to give them respect as persons and let Allah deal with them? I imagine we'll be better people for it.

:hijabi:

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

Sorry, but respect is earned not assumed in my household - And the Pope has a long way to go towards earning my respect after spreading hate and lies with his speeches, after participating in the Nazi Youth, and for acting as an intermediary between the people and God. Having a made-man formula to become infallible in his special chair doesn't change my mind much on the matter, either.

I wouldn't care what Christians call Muhammad PBUH - and I assure you his petnames are alot worse than 'Mo - cause most of them of going to Hell anyway. =) However, I know some brothers out East who take these sorts of insults much more personally and can be rather aggressive in their outrage ... I really wouldn't suggest slagging off the Prophet.

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother Brandon,


I don't think sister Joslyn meant to call you a liar [even in an indiredct way]. It's just that it's a big misconception with all non Catholics [e.g. Protestants] that "The Pope can do no wrong" without being more specific.


This is what I found in wikipedia:

"Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. For details on these other kinds of infallible teachings, see Infallibility of the Church.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that it is definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, there are attached these words: "Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility


This point is important to Catholics. When we Muslims show them that we're knowledgable enough to stear away from a common misconception about Catholicism, I think that will in turn make them want to learn more about Islam from reliable sources so that they can avoid having misconceptions about Islam.


Having said that, I'd like to add to what you posted on your first post on this thread. You said:

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls).


I totally agree with you. I used to think I knew all there is to know about the Priests' abuse of children, untill I saw a documentary about this topic called "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" [produced by the BBC]. You've probably already seen this, but if you haven't, please watch it. There are very disturbing new facts about this whole tragedy.

Sex Crimes and the Vatican (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1869539365648274355&q=Sex+Crimes+Vatican&hl=en)


Regards,

Bluegazer

[Joslyn]

Sorry, but respect is earned not assumed in my household -

Brother, I am trying to respect you right now, but you make my own phillosophy very difficult to act out. I write a whole post about what I was really talking about when you jumped the gun and assumed I was calling you a liar. You could at least have the decency to say, "Thanks. Guess I took you wrong." As it is, you're making my days of being a new Muslim rather heartbreaking.

[Marwa17]

I think it should be obvious that the Pope meant what he said...When people make speeches, I don't think they pull the words out of the back of their minds, do they??? They know what they are going to say and prepare it well...Especially someone like the pope who people are always watching...Either way, I would just like to make a point...The pope is a regular person...as muslims, we don't think of him as more or less significant than another human being...In Islam, when someone insults the prophet, what are we supposed to do?? Ignore them...Never invite them in our homes and lives again...I know that everyone has probably met or heard someone insult the prophet...this is not a lesser sin because they are "no one important"....Allah will judge him and hold him accountable for his actions...The apology? It should not be to us as muslims but to our religion...to Allah and Mohamed (s).

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:salam2:

Yeah I've read and met enough people to know plenty, thank you though (regarding the documentary on Catholic sexual abuse, that is). The Roman Catholics have been leading people astray even since they assumed the power of the dying Roman Empire - ever since they declared that because the awful Muslims are so concerned with wasting water and cleaning themselves all day long that we Christians must'nt (which turned out to be a major contributing factor to The Plague) - ever since they insisted that their religious men and women musn't marry to preserve their purity (and go against the God-made design of human beings, also a major factor to all this sexual abuse) - ever since they first tried selling people hand-written pardons on parchment paper for their sins..! Only 10 silver; Sunday Sale!

I thank you kindly for your insight, though, and am pleased to hear that I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment, Sister. May Allah guide us all. It's just that to not lie is automatically assumed among Muslims - there's no real need to bring it up, unless you doubt someone's truthfulness I'd guess. Please reread my comments - any aggression I may feel is in response to the Pope, not to you Sister.

:wasalam:

[Marwa17]

WHOA!!!!...why's everyone getting bent out of shape???...lol...allah will judge us all...we can't judge anyone nor can we stereotype about a whole religion...There's good in everyone...Allah can change us all for the best and i pray that he does.

[Joslyn]

:salam2:

Yeah I've read and met enough people to know plenty, thank you though (regarding the documentary on Catholic sexual abuse, that is). The Roman Catholics have been leading people astray even since they assumed the power of the dying Roman Empire - ever since they declared that because the awful Muslims are so concerned with wasting water and cleaning themselves all day long that we Christians must'nt (which turned out to be a major contributing factor to The Plague) - ever since they insisted that their religious men and women musn't marry to preserve their purity (and go against the God-made design of human beings, also a major factor to all this sexual abuse) - ever since they first tried selling people hand-written pardons on parchment paper for their sins..! Only 10 silver; Sunday Sale!

Sorry, but I will not respect Benny or his "Church" ... they've been backward since the beginning, and continue to practice all sorts of invented garbage as they grasp desperately for control. Which religion is losing people the fastest in the world? Catholicism. Which religion is gaining people the fastest? Islam.

Heck, just a couple of weeks ago some crazy, sex-deprived Catholic priest set himself ablaze in a suicidal protest against the Church's inability to keep their congregation and (specifically) at their impotency in stopping the spread of Islam!

I thank you kindly for your insight, though, and am pleased to hear that I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment, Sister. May Allah guide us all.

:wasalam:



Again, what had ANY of this post (but 2% of it) have to do with what I had just written? I think you are just looking to spew your anger. I am glad I never met Muslims like you before reverting, or I would probably have been so put off, I would have never have considered Islam. And then I would have been lost.

May Allah guide you, because no one else can, for sure.

PS. I am so frustrated, I am crying right now.
:girl3:

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

What that post had to do with your post was that you asked me to show respect for Benedict - I then listed some more reasons why I choose not to. In my opinion, it's entirely on-topic to this thread as well as related to your post.

I am sorry to evoke such powerful emotions in you. There is no need to be so defensive. Clearly I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment; clearly you would have known you weren't accusing me of being a liar. So all is good, then. As I edited into my last post, generally there's no need to bring up this among Muslims as it's an assumed quality of character, which is why I misunderstood you.

[Joslyn]

What that post had to do with your post was that you asked me to show respect for Benedict - I then listed some more reasons why I choose not to. In my opinion, it's entirely on-topic to this thread as well as related to your post.

I am sorry to evoke such powerful emotions in you. There is no need to be so defensive. Clearly I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment; clearly you would have known you weren't accusing me of being a liar. So all is good, then. As I edited into my last post, generally there's no need to bring up this among Muslims as it's an assumed quality of character, which is why I misunderstood you.

Thank you, brother.... I am not familiar with how quality of character is assumed in Islam, because I am so new. As it is, I am currently in a house owned by my Christian in-laws, in a state that is far away from where my husband and I live, for a holiday that I do not celebrate. And I will probably have to divorce my husband because he is a Maronite Catholic, and from what I understand, our marriage may not be valid anymore. (And we've only been married since May.) As you can imagine, I am very lonely. I came to the forums looking for friendship and some intelligent dialogue, and took what you said wrong probably because of all of the above working together. Please forgive me for misjudging you.

[firdeus]

Dear sister Joselyn,
I just read the last post of yours and I must confess I feel worried little about you. I was about asking this question, but since you brought it up, I wanted to ask, have you ever talked with your husband about your belief, is any way you can discuss this with him? Maybe this is still fresh for you, but introducing him to islam, would be a good start, and you might get help from the same one that helped you understanding islam (I believe you mentioned Yusuf Estees). Also sister make dua. Allah sends ease for each hardsheep. If you want to talk about this please feel free, if we can help you in any way.

Salam :hijabi:

[ibn azem]

:salam2:

Dear sister Joslyn,

Your last posts have drawn my attention as well, you should know that you do have here so many brothers and sisters that feel for you and you should never feel alone nor frustrated.
You have found the Truth subhanallah, that is by Allah the most precious gift you could ever get in your life even if were to live a million years or more - Islam.
So don't you ever doubt that you are alone, because you are for sure not alone. Allah (swt) will make it easy for you and you will get over this sterssful time. You should also not forget that Allah (swt) can put you on test whether you really believe in Him, so you have to stand firm because you have the best future as a muslimah in front of you for sure. You will by the will of Allah be eased and the best end is for the believers, and don't forget that the Jannah is not won that easy. There's trials in life, and as you had trials before Islam you will have as a muslimah however, now you have Allah (swt) on your side insha'Allah to put your trust in. And He is the One we all should put our trust on.

Whatever you need do not hesitate, we will try our best to be of help sister!

I ask Allah (swt) to make it easy for you in this life sister, and reward you with Jannatul- Firdaws insha'Allah.

wasalaam

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

My dear Sister, forgive my bluntness ... this is the Current Affairs section, and this is quite a hot-topic as you can tell - A passionate place where some of us feel very strongly. I'm afraid you may have somehow been caught in the ideological cross-fire quite unintentionally.

As a new Muslim and recently a devout Catholic, I might advise that you try to stick to topics that will broaden your understanding of our religion itself, not the endless conflicts that are imposed on us. Much like the original Christians who called people to worship the One and Only True God that were fed to the lions, it seems all too appearent to me that in this selfish and secular period of humanity the Muslims are now the ones being dismissed as fundamentalists in need of being fed to the lions... and frankly we're not prepared to lay down and die. And so, there're many issues that some of us (like myself) feel very strongly about. Unfortunately, unlike the Glorious Qur'an, these issues are not cut n' dry but rather complex issues that are only unravelled through effort, time, reasoning, and reflection - by Allah's will, of course. =)

Regarding your situation: I am everytime sorry to hear of the painful struggles that new Muslims have to go through in order to restore divine balance in their lives. My wife still has difficulties with her parents and family, but not nearly as bad as they were to start - Alhamdulilah! Do not despair, though - Our Lord is indeed very merciful, and if the love and understanding between your husband and you are both strong, there is always the opppourtunity that Allah will guide his heart to concidering the facts; to concidering Islam. It might not be an ideal situation, but I've found that anything worth having is worth struggling for. May He send the angels to ease the pain in your heart, and to comfort the mental turmoil in their soft embrace - Ameen. =)