Muslim World Inflamed Over Rushdie Knighthood

[Abu Hannah]

Pakistan and Iran have condemned Britain's award of a knighthood to India-born author Salman Rushdie as an affront to Muslim sentiments, with Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman calling it "obvious proof of anti-Islamism by ranking British officials" and a Pakistani Cabinet minister saying the honor provided a justification for suicide attacks.

In the eastern city of Multan, Pakistan, hard-line Muslim students burned effigies of Queen Elizabeth II and Rushdie June 18. About 100 students carrying banners condemning the author also chanted, "Kill him! Kill him!"

On June 17, Iran Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini said granting Britain's highest honor to Rushdie, whose novel "The Satanic Verses" sparked a death threat nearly a decade ago, insulted the Muslim world. His comments came during a time of especially tense relations between the Islamic republic and the West.

"Awarding a person who is among the most detested characters in the Islamic society is obvious proof of anti-Islamism by ranking British officials," Hosseini said at his weekly press conference.

[Waterdrop]

[QUOTE=Abu Hannah;87218]Pakistan

In the eastern city of Multan, Pakistan, hard-line Muslim students burned effigies of Queen Elizabeth II and Rushdie June 18. About 100 students carrying banners condemning the author also chanted, "Kill him! Kill him!"

QUOTE]

wow, they want to kill someone over a book? Sounds shortminded if you ask me. How about countering his book with another or seeking a dialougue? It seems to me that evertime an "efigy" (which many in the west see as extremely humourous) is burnt, that group, whomever it may be, loses credibility.

[Redneck]

I think it is wrong to award a knighthood to someone who knowingly went looking to cause big trouble in the world.

However we shouldn't let this lead us to anger. All the Europeans and Americans will see is flag burning, shouting , and banner waving.

Remember, to understand the Western Media you have to know its core principle :
The medium is the message- The message is the medium.

TV viewers won't hear the truth, but they will be left with completely the wrong impression of what we are about - images of anger . Most non Muslim Europeans know nothing about Islam. They will just watch the news and say:

" Look, those Muslims are at it again let's change channels..."

Rushdies book hasn't stirred a debate amongst non Muslims because, unless
we break the deadlock of the media associating Islam with anger and violence, non Muslim Europeans that is what we will be associated with
in their minds. They won't listen and they won't read.

I have just listened to a wonderful speech by a Muslim aid worker from Palestine. We should work to get this kind of persons story told on the T.V.
not be giving even more publicity and money to Mr. Rushdie.

[abdallahbilal]

:salam2:

Ironically, in many Muslim countries, by far less democratic and with weaker freedom of speech than western countries, Dan Brown's The Davinci Code (along with the movie adaptation) was either limited or totally banned in order not to "insult" Christians living in Muslim lands. No one could watch the movie in cenima where I live! Not to mention that The Davinci Code is less bitter than The Satanic Verses.

The concept of "freedom of speech" needs to be refined!

[konrad16660]

the news will show you only what the goverment and those in controls want to show you. Remember Katrina? Yea all it showed was black people looting, when in reality that was completely false. It was a very small aspect of what was going on. So please when they point that camera's at somthing remeber here in the United States we are made to hate muslims. If they can't convince the general public that muslims are evil, their agenda won't work.

[abdallahbilal]

I think it is wrong to award a knighthood to someone who knowingly went looking to cause big trouble in the world.

However we shouldn't let this lead us to anger. All the Europeans and Americans will see is flag burning, shouting , and banner waving.

Remember, to understand the Western Media you have to know its core principle :
The medium is the message- The message is the medium.

TV viewers won't hear the truth, but they will be left with completely the wrong impression of what we are about - images of anger . Most non Muslim Europeans know nothing about Islam. They will just watch the news and say:

" Look, those Muslims are at it again let's change channels..."

Rushdies book hasn't stirred a debate amongst non Muslims because, unless
we break the deadlock of the media associating Islam with anger and violence, non Muslim Europeans that is what we will be associated with
in their minds. They won't listen and they won't read.

I have just listened to a wonderful speech by a Muslim aid worker from Palestine. We should work to get this kind of persons story told on the T.V.
not be giving even more publicity and money to Mr. Rushdie.

I agree, Rushdie's book became famous only after Ayatullah's fatwa. The fatwa scapegoated Rushdie and made a "hero" out of him.

[Redneck]

abdallahbilal: There are some great stories out there which reflect the strength, compassion, and dignity of Muslims throughout the world. True freedom would be to allow them to speak.

Konraad : katrina was a terrible tragedy . It was made far worse by the
way it was reported . It magnified and turned something that had previously not been an issue into one.

The media, and all those they keep in power - They have only one ( very old ) trick :

... they help each of us "forget".

Lets not fall for it .

We can take back our lives, our families, our communities and maybe even bigger things as long as we don't play to their rules. Under the rules given to us through the prophet (pbuh) from Allah (SWT) we win. No contest.

[Mohsin]

:SMILY139: Hi !

We can take back our lives, our families, our communities and maybe even bigger things as long as we don't play to their rules. Under the rules given to us through the prophet (pbuh) from Allah (SWT) we win. No contest.

I agree completely, with you.

P.S. I am still waiting for the remaining story you promised to tell us

[Waterdrop]

:salam2:

Ironically, in many Muslim countries, by far less democratic and with weaker freedom of speech than western countries, Dan Brown's The Davinci Code (along with the movie adaptation) was either limited or totally banned in order not to "insult" Christians living in Muslim lands. No one could watch the movie in cenima where I live! Not to mention that The Davinci Code is less bitter than The Satanic Verses.

The concept of "freedom of speech" needs to be refined!

There are those, as you said on the Christian side, that don't approve of the Davinci Code, I on the other hand can take it as it is. I don't believe it to be fact. However i'm not about to go protest because everyone has the right to write anything they want. I've yet to see the movie (i'm not a huge movie-goer) but would like to rent it someday.

[Waterdrop]

the news will show you only what the goverment and those in controls want to show you. Remember Katrina? Yea all it showed was black people looting, when in reality that was completely false. It was a very small aspect of what was going on. So please when they point that camera's at somthing remeber here in the United States we are made to hate muslims. If they can't convince the general public that muslims are evil, their agenda won't work.

we are not made to hate muslims at all. I hate noone and many feel the same way. You can only be made to hate if you are already filled with it.

[abdallahbilal]

There are those, as you said on the Christian side, that don't approve of the Davinci Code, I on the other hand can take it as it is. I don't believe it to be fact. However i'm not about to go protest because everyone has the right to write anything they want. I've yet to see the movie (i'm not a huge movie-goer) but would like to rent it someday.

Salam,

Everyone has the right to write and express whatever he wants = Law

Everyone should not insult anyone = Ethics, Morality, and Commonsense

The above two elements are separate in the "modern" secular world, unfortunately.


Even if law allowed me to "insult" the religion or culture of somebody, I personally won't do it. The Quran taught us not to do so and so did the prophet, even if others started the offense. The wisdom of the Quran is that insulting somebody's religion will lead to a circular action-and-reaction sieries of insults:


Do not curse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done. (6:108)

Isn't that teaching very beautiful??

[Libinette]

Indeed...
Wisdom, wisdom, wisdom
mashal;lah

[Waterdrop]

[SIZE=4]
Salam,

Everyone has the right to write and express whatever he wants = Law

That is true

Everyone should not insult anyone = Ethics, Morality, and Commonsense

Morality is a relative term, morality is differnt from country to country

The above two elements are separate in the "modern" secular world, unfortunately.

hence freedom of speech

Even if law allowed me to "insult" the religion or culture of somebody, I personally won't do it.

that's your choice, personally I wouldn't either unless it tried infringing on my belieefs

The Quran taught us not to do so and so did the prophet, even if others started the offense. The wisdom of the Quran is that insulting somebody's religion will lead to a circular action-and-reaction sieries of insults:

it is your choice to follow the quran's teachings, not everyone believes in the quran so it's directions don't apply to everyone (however the world would be a better place if we respected one another more no matter what religion we are)


I never said i condone everything people write, but they are free people and should be able to write what they want no matter how, correct, wrong, brilliant, stupid (insert adjective here).

[abdallahbilal]

Morality is a relative term, morality is differnt from country to country.

Salam,
So it's ok for u if some country's version of morality allows people to insult each other!!!

If it's culturally agreeable in a country to rape and kill children, can we say "come on, it's just their version of morality".

I agree with u morality is relative. But still there are shared moral values because the human factor is shared.

For God's sake, be careful what u say.

[abdallahbilal]

I never said i condone everything people write, but they are free people and should be able to write what they want no matter how, correct, wrong, brilliant, stupid (insert adjective here).


What about the following adjectives: murder-encouraging or insulting

Should we accept them?

[Waterdrop]

Salam,
So it's ok for u if some country's version of morality allows people to insult each other!!!

ABSOLUTLY and long as it does not violate their human rights.

If it's culturally agreeable in a country to rape and kill children, can we say "come on, it's just their version of morality".

See my last response...rape and murder is quite different from insults..sticks and stones..etc.

I agree with u morality is relative. But still there are shared moral values because the human factor is shared.

Again, with the exception of human rights these factors are all relative.

For God's sake, be careful what u say.

I don't need to be careful what I say. Since what i say is not wrong. or am I mistaken?

[Waterdrop]

What about the following adjectives: murder-encouraging or insulting

Should we accept them?

You mean like the nazi's?...no you don't have to accept it but as long as they don't actually kill anyone then it's nothing but words.

[abdallahbilal]

I don't need to be careful what I say. Since what i say is not wrong. or am I mistaken?

I'm afraid, yes.

[Waterdrop]

then where?

[abdallahbilal]

You mean like the nazi's?...no you don't have to accept it but as long as they don't actually kill anyone then it's nothing but words.

Why not! A moment ago u said morality is relative!

[Waterdrop]

it is relative, however I mentioned Human Rights, or did you forget?

[abdallahbilal]

it is relative, however I mentioned Human Rights, or did you forget?


I guess everyone has the right of not being insulted. And yes, morality condemns insulting people and condemns murder. If "human rights" does not grant me dignity, then it's not the solution.

[Redneck]

Waterdrop:

We take the existence of language as a matter of fact in everyday life. We use it to think and speak and write. We take it for-granted because we are so familiar with it, because its there, in our heads and in our mouths, at our fingertips, all the time.


Oddly we are only often half aware of what we are saying, half conscious of our thoughts and the meanings that arise from them. Nor do we always listen carefully to what other people say. Also we may not always consider the possible effects of our thoughts and words, which may spread way beyond the user.



The Qur'an wasn't delivered as a set of images scratched into a cave wall. It wasn't numeric, or sculptural, it wasn't found in the patterns in the stars .

The message was conveyed in beautifully structured rhyming and harmonic language.

Why do you think that was? Is language special?

[Waterdrop]

I guess everyone has the right of not being insulted. And yes, morality condemns insulting people and condemns murder. If "human rights" does not grant me dignity, then it's not the solution.

It all depends on what your idea of an insult is. If someone tells me that they don't believe in a Christian God and calls him all sorts of insults and blasphamy i'd just laugh and tell them that God will judge them and that would be that. Take the Denmark cartoons for instance. People wanted to kill others. Only you can control yourself, others can't.

YOUR morality condems insulting, mine doesn't care for it but accepts the fact that others have a right to their opinion no matter how wrong it is. Most if not all cultures morality condems murder. No one but yourself can grant dignity. Dignity is something that only YOU can control. Why the obsession with making others comply to your beliefs?

Just because I say people have the right to say anything they want it doesn't mean that I agree with them or my moral compass is going into the same direction. We in the West don't like to be controlled by any ONE body of morality.

[Waterdrop]

Waterdrop:

We take the existence of language as a matter of fact in everyday life. We use it to think and speak and write. We take it for-granted because we are so familiar with it, because its there, in our heads and in our mouths, at our fingertips, all the time.


Oddly we are only often half aware of what we are saying, half conscious of our thoughts and the meanings that arise from them. Nor do we always listen carefully to what other people say. Also we may not always consider the possible effects of our thoughts and words, which may spread way beyond the user.



The Qur'an wasn't delivered as a set of images scratched into a cave wall. It wasn't numeric, or sculptural, it wasn't found in the patterns in the stars .

The message was conveyed in beautifully structured rhyming and harmonic language.

Why do you think that was? Is language special?

While what you're saying is nice and all, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic. I'm not saying that it's ok the insult people, it's just their right to speak their minds.

[island muslim]

Waterdrop,

So why is that one can't "question the NUMBERS in the holocaust" cause it hurts the sensitivities of the jews??

[Globalpeace]

Asslamo Allaikum,

When Satanic verses came out; I wasn’t practising Islam. I saw hundreds of people demonstrate and talk about it; but I met only a single Muslim who actually had read the book!

Most Muslims who were demonstrating had read reviews such as the following:

http://www.jamaat.net/rushdie/Rushdie.html

In my humble opinion; after reading the book; the review falls WAY SHORT OF THE MARK!

Satanic verses is not a piece of literary work; it’s a debacle; its utterly rubbish and not worth the paper that its written on!

If Salman Rushdie hadn’t attacked Islam this book wouldn’t have sold the copies that it did and that’s a fact! He is an astonishingly shocking writer!

I have also read Taslima Nasreen’s stuff (in English because I don’t know Bangali) & its third rate trashy novel stuff that doesn’t get sold at Amazon! Again it would have NEVER sold if she hadn’t taken swipes at Islam!

Same goes for ASRA NOMANI! She was a third rate journalist at best! Now her grand-father was a scholar and I rate him highly!

So these guys are buying publicity!

They were3rd rate 3rd-grade Authors who became champions overnight by attacking Islam! If Muslims read their stuff they will truly know HOW SHOCKING IT IS!

Having said all that; I say with great regret that most of my Brothers/Sisters don’t even have the necessary English language skills to READ let alone critique Salman Rushdie!

DO NOT READ THESE BOOKS! THEY ARE TRASHY THIRD-RATE NOVELS!

[Waterdrop]

Waterdrop,

So why is that one can't "question the NUMBERS in the holocaust" cause it hurts the sensitivities of the jews??

you can question it all you want. has anyone imprisoned you for asking? Besides, i'm not Jewish.

[Globalpeace]

Respected Brother,

1) Holocaust denial is a crime in most Western countries and there are many notable examples of people who have been charged in this regard AND imprisoned such as Richard Verrall (Canada), David Irving (UK), Pierre Guillame (France), Roeland Raes (Belgium) etc. etc. etc. Some of the names mentioned served prison times; some didn't.....

Actually David Irving is sentenced to 3 years in Prison in Austria for denying Holocaust!

2) Many books have been banned under Holocaust denial laws!

3) Now look at the legal definition of Holocaust denial…Holocaust did not occur in the manner and to the extent described by current scholarship….

So I just have to question the number of dead people (not deny it completely) and be sent to prison for it!

4) The last point is, although in EU under regulation Joint action/96/443/JHA Holocaust denial is NOT a crime but the Judge can still optionally (on discretion) send a person to prison for three years for denying Holocaust!

So you can deny anything in Islam or Christianity; no problems….You question the “Extent” of Holocaust and you can be send to prison for upto 3 years at Judges discretion in any EU member state!

Please don’t come back with tittle-tattle as I don’t have time for it; play around with others on the forums and enjoy your time…I have given the exact EU regulation; go see an attorney.

Thanks

P.S: So much for freedom of Speech!

P.P.S: You MUST also know that books/publications depicting and glorifying child molestation are ALSO banned in most Western countries.

you can question it all you want. has anyone imprisoned you for asking? Besides, i'm not Jewish.

[island muslim]

Thank u brother global peace for getting the facts and "enlighting" waterdrop here about the hypocricy of free speech in the west.

[Redneck]

Waterdrop:

It has everything to do with the topic. Now concentrate.

The Russian writer Chekhov had a problem. He needed to be able to covey
what it was like to see the moon in the night sky.

It wasn't silvery, it wasn't white, it wasn't like huge round piece of cheese.
No, silver is silvery, white is too vague, and a piece of cheese is .. well.. a piece of cheese and very un-moon-like.

You know his solution- suggest to the reader the moon's reflection in a piece of broken glass. It took him days to come up with that.

The Qur'an is full of these ways of showing us things we otherwise could not convey or understand. But it is so much better and so much more effective than human efforts alone. In the Qur'an you don't just "see" the reflections of things- you get glimpses of what they are.

Maybe the reason the message is language is that language is the one art/communication form we can all use without needing tools or a special area to express it. We carry it all inside us, it weighs nothing so it is portable, Its potentially a perfect gift.

Can you tell me why this has nothing to do with Salmon Rushdie's case?
Do you think he could have applied his gift more thoughtfully?

[Redneck]

Globalpeace : Tried reading Midnight's Children once, Yawnnn.

[Aapa]

Salaam,

I promised myself I would not write. Here I go again.
Dear waterdrop, you make me shed the cobwebs of my mind.
Freedom of speech; in the US there has existed a list of writers and poets and directors whe were not able to obtain visa to come here. Polansky is one, Pablo Neruda was never given a visa. The list is gragantuan today. I am thinking of the Beatles in th 1960's in England..ask the surviving members of what happened to them. All the poor guys did was sing silly love songs.

Before you attack a group of people look into your own backyard. Freedom of speech is a funny term. In the US it is supposed to be a first amendment right...for a select few...as usual if you need an extensive or comprehensive list I will be glad to research the crevices of my mind and give you a list of names of those who's first amendment rights have been violated.

If you claim to be a member of a group. society, culture, or faith you by the essence of wanting membership abide by the rules of the particular group. If you change you mind..you are no longer a member of the group. Even the Hell's Angles have some bylaws that members abide by. Mr. Rushdie broke the premise of being a group member. He went one step further...he sold his soul to the devil in broad daylight. It is that simple. He accepted knighthood.

[ripefig]

:salam2:

Rushdie can be rewarded and praised as much as he wants in this world. However, he will have his day in the court of Allah most high. Him and his supporters will get what they deserve and there will be none to help them because there is none mightier or greater than Allah. As Muslims, we cannot utter a bad word about Moses, Jesus or any of the prophets (peace be upon them all) and still call ourselves Muslims. We should not even condone someone speaking ill of them. THAT IS WHAT SEPARATE US FROM THEM. Isn't this a wonderful deen?

:wasalam:

[Redneck]

Mirajmom: Very well said.

Waterdrop: A good poet could show you an entire field of vision refracted into a single drop of water. Stars, night sky, moon through a veil of clouds all inside that tiny little hemisphere. But all that would be is your field of vision, and the world as it appears to be distorted in the waters lens . A really good poet could make you feel a sense of wonder.

It wouldn't be the word of Allah swt , it would be a representation of part of Creation. It is easy to confuse.

That is why you have to be careful how you represent what you write.

[abdallahbilal]

It all depends on what your idea of an insult is. If someone tells me that they don't believe in a Christian God and calls him all sorts of insults and blasphamy i'd just laugh and tell them that God will judge them and that would be that. Take the Denmark cartoons for instance. People wanted to kill others. Only you can control yourself, others can't.

YOUR morality condems insulting, mine doesn't care for it but accepts the fact that others have a right to their opinion no matter how wrong it is. Most if not all cultures morality condems murder. No one but yourself can grant dignity. Dignity is something that only YOU can control. Why the obsession with making others comply to your beliefs?

Just because I say people have the right to say anything they want it doesn't mean that I agree with them or my moral compass is going into the same direction. We in the West don't like to be controlled by any ONE body of morality.

:salam2:

The thread became boring. It's not about saying blasphemies; u seem not to differentiate between dialoguing with some people over their faith and insulting other people's faith, no need to go over the jargon used in either of them. The problem is that some people mix dicordant concepts and sometimes seperate correlative concepts.

Many non-Mulslims and Muslims on this website do dialogue over some sensitive Islamic and Christian issues, including Waterdrop. Nobody said they insulted anybody's faith. If anybody insults anybody's faith on this website, he will be banned, as far as I know. And as I told u earlier, I would dialogue with christians and non-Muslims peacefully, but I wouldn't insult them.


Why the obsession with making others comply to your beliefs?
...
...
We in the West don't like to be controlled by any ONE body of morality.


Nobody here made anybody comply here. This is unfounded. If you mean the protests against Rushdie, then I, like many others on this website, am against the protests because they dont conform with the wisdom of the Quran of avoiding the circle of "action-and-reaction".

We value freedom no less than u think u do. We are all humans after all. However, proudly enough, our version of freedom is insult-free.

[Aapa]

Salaam,

There is a great video on youtube. I can not give you the link. It will be deleted. (language ) However, search this title:
How Rushdie Fooled The West.

[TheHumbleWun]

Salaam,

Western media, including many government officials rushed headlong to support this man (Rushdie) to defend his work under the pretext of 'freedom of speech.' It was yet another occasion of the 'double standard' the west has been playing against Islam. One month prior to the publication of Rushdie's book, the partisans of free speech violated the freedom of expression when they banned the book, Spy Catcher by Peter Write. Why? Because it was against their interest!

Rushdie not only reviled Islam, but also others. He wrote filthy things about blacks, Hindus, Budhhists, women, and used the *F* word countless times. In spite of such filthy expressions in his book, he received a literary award as the best among writers and novelists!

Victoria Gleninng in the Times wrote: "Rushdie has the power of description, and we succumb."

Bill Buford, in the Sunday Times, called his work "A masterpiece."

Hyam Maccoby, in the Sunday Telegraph wrote--"command of variety of English --and width of intellectual reference have been well exercised before, but never on such a scale"

This only goes to prove 2 things:

1) Either the intellectuals of the west have lost their sense of judgment

or

2) They have also started acting develish like Rushdie to recognize such filthy words as *F*; S***t; B***h worthy of receiving the literary award and be classified as the "Masterpiece."

We can also note a few of the many other books that have been banned as well, such as:

1) Richard Hardwood "Did 6 Million Really Die"

2) John Steinbeck "The Grapes of Wrath" (Banned in many places of the U.S.)

3) Frank Snepp "Decent Interval"

We can see that Freedom of Expression/Speech is limited and is only used for the interest of authoritative officials.

[cmelbouzaidi]

Wow, I feel like I have re-entered the twilight zone (the last time being when Bush was re-elected in 2004). They are going to or have knighted that creep, Rushdie.... just unbelievable to me. I never read his cr*ppy book but I saw a video where the late and wonderful Ahmed Deedat read a few lines from it... It was then that I realized that it was, as Globalpeace mentioned, complete and utter rubbish!! It even insults British people terribly and I found that offensive too, although I am Irish :) I believe it was a mistake when the fatwa came out against Rushdie as I don't think the book would have got a second look if Ayatullah had not got involved...... And then suddenly it was on all these university curriculum as a "must read" in English literature..... Just bizarre.... Any time I see that creep on TV, my skin crawls... I was embarrased to be Irish when I learned that Bono hid Rushdie in his home in Ireland for some time..... Rushdie is such an arrogant jerk, religious differences aside. Also, he knew what the reaction would be to his stupid book and he got what he wanted ultimately, fame he would not have had otherwise as he is not the intellectual genius he thinks he is :) Knighted for what, exactly, for saying obscene things about the Brits in his book? Also, I often wondered what happened to his relatives in Pakistan after the Satanic Verses, I would be keeping it very hushed if I was related to such a disgusting creep..... Sad news and it shows the state of affairs in Europe.... I will have my eyes open when I move to France shortly, Insha Allah :)